ammonia nitrite and nitrate = 0

[Tooj]

First off, im new to this forum and fish keeping in general. so go easy...

2ndly, when setting up this account i was asked "how many tires does a car have?" i answer "5" which was wrong....i know it was really looking for "4" as the correct answer...but the majority of cars on the street have 5 (spare tire included) then have 4.

and that brings me to my question.
i have a 3 gallon tank with some fish in it that is currently being cycled (or so i think). i didnt know about fishless cycling before i started. and for the record, i would do it without fish if i could start over. at the moment there is 7 small white cloud mountain minnows in there (about half an inch in length..and yes, im going to get a bigger tank when they grow up a little more). im about 2 weeks into my cycling, and i cant get any readings on my ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. Im using API drop testing kit. and im assuming my tank isnt cycled yet because its only been 2 weeks...but even if the tank was cycled there should be some nitrate readings? ive done alot of research on the topic, some suggested that the tests were being performed incorrectly (i double checked that i wasnt), some suggested that theres not enough waste coming from the fish (but in a small tank, with that many fish...there should be something?), some also suggested that its a good thing that my readings are 0 (yes, but there should be some nitrate...)
i have an aquaclear 20, air pump with stone, no live plants, gravel, light.
should i be worried?
should i do weekly water changes just to be on the safe side?
any hints, suggestions, advice, or comments are welcome. thanks.

 

[aakaakaak]

Just to verify, you shook the living heck out of Nitrate #2 before testing with it, right? And your ammonia test includes both test bottles 1 and 2 as well, right? If you're doing this right you should be seeing it start to flip any day now.

Alternatively, you can go buy a bottle of Tetra Safe Start or Seachem Stability and follow their directions with the fish still in the tank. Either one should kick start your cycle.

The only other thought I have is that your PH is too low for your cycle to start (Somewhere below 5.4 I think), but your fish probably would have croaked if that was the case.

 

[Tooj]

Just to verify, you shook the living heck out of Nitrate #2 before testing with it, right? And your ammonia test includes both test bottles 1 and 2 as well, right? If you're doing this right you should be seeing it start to flip any day now.

Alternatively, you can go buy a bottle of Tetra Safe Start or Seachem Stability and follow their directions with the fish still in the tank. Either one should kick start your cycle.

The only other thought I have is that your PH is too low for your cycle to start (Somewhere below 5.4 I think), but your fish probably would have croaked if that was the case.

thanks for the reply
ya, my ammonia kit contains 2 bottles, and i shook the heck out of nitrate bottle #2. even smacking it on the table a few times before shaking it for a minute (supposidly that loosens the solids from the sides)
pH is somewhere between 7.4-7.6, so i should be getting the production of nitrite
maybe it just needs another week or so to see levels begin to rise?
is it possible that my fish have constapation? i feed twice a day, a really small amount. sometimes once a day. and ive NEVER seen any of the fish with a peice of poo hanging from their gut. I used to have goldfish back in the day and they were crappers. there was hardly a day that went by where i didnt see something hanging from their underbelly. are wcmm wastes just that much smaller? the only comparison i can come up with us....a goldfish's waste looks like a dogs...while a mcww wastes looks like...a goats?

 

[aakaakaak]

From what I've seen the minnow family isn't much for poop strings. You could be feeding just enough to cover what they need. Add that to the fact you're running a 20g filter on a 3 gallon tank and it may take you a while to pull the cycle through.

 

[pateceramics]

Even if you're fish weren't pooping, you should still see ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates start to show up. They secrete ammonia directly from their gills from what I understand, no pooping required. Is there a local fish store you could take a water sample to for testing on the off chance that your kit is defective somehow?

 

[Tooj]

Even if you're fish weren't pooping, you should still see ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates start to show up. They secrete ammonia directly from their gills from what I understand, no pooping required. Is there a local fish store you could take a water sample to for testing on the off chance that your kit is defective somehow?

yes there is, maybe ill do that. thanks.
however.....this is my second kit....i bought an ammonia and nitrite test kit, API, from tisol...everything kept reading "0". i looked at the Lot#. it was made in 2009, and supposidly these things have a 2-3 year shelf life, which would put that first kit near the end of its shelf life...so i returned that, went to petsmart and got a master test kit, API also. that too reads "0" (made at the beginning of 2011)
im going to give it a few more days before going into my LFS to see what happens

 

[Tooj]

From what I've seen the minnow family isn't much for poop strings. You could be feeding just enough to cover what they need. Add that to the fact you're running a 20g filter on a 3 gallon tank and it may take you a while to pull the cycle through.

that could also be it. a few more days and ill let you guys know whats going on. thanks for the replys

 

[skjl47]

Hello; I have been following your thread. Am I correct that your fish are fine so far and that you are mainly concerned about readings not being what you expect? If so perhaps leaving things as they are for a while is a way to go.

I have never used chemical additives to set up a tank, so will leave suggestions about that approach to those who favor that method.

Your fish are alive and so are producing waste. The water is being conditioned (cycled) and hopefully your luck will hold with a somewhat small starter tank. You have more than enough filter and that seems like a good move.

I am a strong believer in having some live plants in an aquarium. There are several free floating plants that can be tossed into a tank. I happen to have hornwort right now. I break off a few strands for all my tanks, two of which have no substrate at this time. The plants just float around.

I also like to have some snails in a tank. I feel they add to the conditioning by their metabolism the same as fish. Snails are also very hardy and survive in a fresh tank of water. I usually toss some plants and snails into a new tank and wait a week before adding just one or two fish. I then wait a while before adding just a few more fish. It is part of the the conditioning process I have used for some time.

One advantage you will have if the three gallon tank proves good is a starter culture for the next tank you set up. Should you have plants and snails in the three gallon just toss some in the new tank. The surface of the plants and snails will host the beneficial bacteria. Should you not want to use them, a sponge filter in the three gallon will become, in a few weeks, a host surface for beneficial bacteria. I took a suggestion from this forum and have split the sponge so as to have a half portion to quickly place in a new tank when necessary.

 

[kb951]

Tooj welcome to the tank! i would do about 3 water changes a week after it cycle's about less than 10% each time, i have a ten gallon that hold's feeder's and it might be because i have over a 100 in the tank but if i do not change the water 3 time's a week less than 10% each time my rosy's wont survive

 

[Tooj]

yes, i am mainly concered about not getting any readings on anything. I agree that no news is good news! hahaha
i am planning on getting some plants for my tank, im just waiting on a friend to split me off some of his so i dont have to pay. hes on vacation! =) and there doesnt seem to be a huge rush since my fish are doing fine
one of my other concerns is that these "0" readings will not give me a heads up when to do a water change. I hear your not supposed to do water changes when cycling a tank unless it gets into a dangerous or uncomfortable zone for the fish...and haveing 0's doesnt give me any warning. The only warning i would get would be sick fish...hopefully not permanent. Also....with the 0's as readings, im not sure when my tank has been fully cycled so i can change to weekly water changes (as supposed to only when the fish look like theyre sick!)
would you guys suggest just going ahead with weekly water changes even though my tank may or may not be cycled? it may take longer to cycle (if not already), but at least the fish will be ok?

thanks for the advice regarding splitting the sponge. ill keep that in mind. i have been looking into buying a much larger tank

 

[Tooj]

Tooj welcome to the tank! i would do about 3 water changes a week after it cycle's about less than 10% each time, i have a ten gallon that hold's feeder's and it might be because i have over a 100 in the tank but if i do not change the water 3 time's a week less than 10% each time my rosy's wont survive

thanks, what about during cycling? just let it do its thing? are there any other ways to tell if the tank has been fully cycled without doing water tests? just curious. im probably gunna end up taking some samples into the LFS for testing like you guys have been suggesting

 

[skjl47]

Hello; There is a thread "water change size" on this forum that discussed the water change question a bit. My take on the cycling process from reading comments on this forum is that the desired cycle product is a population of beneficial bacteria. These bacteria are felt to be on the surfaces of things in the tank and not so much in the water itself.

As far as how much and how often to change water, the opinions are all over the place. One forum member felt the need to do large water changes each day. I have been doing water changes on a two week cycle of late, but was on a four week cycle for a long time. I suspect that the point where a water change becomes truly needed will vary a lot due to a lot of parameters. (tank size, stocking density, plants or no, filtration type, basic water quality and so on.) I also suspect that frequent large water changes help some members feel better in that they are doing something positive.

Stuff builds up in a tank from processes like evaporation and the metabolism of the living things. This happens in a completely cycled tank the same as a new tank. Removing some water is a way to remove some of this buildup. How often will depend on a number of things. To play it safer with a three gallon tank, ten fish and no plants, you may have less chance of problems with some fairly frequent water changes. In a sense, if done properly, there is no such thing as too many water changes. It can be done more often than actually necessary.

One other thread that may be worth reading is titled “stocking density opinion” I started it and expressed some views and did get some worthwhile comments from members of this forum.

 

[Tooj]

Thank you skjl47, those 2 threads you suggested provided valuable insight. I agree with what you and some other members were stating, regarding stocking densities and water changes. stocking densities are basicaly dependant on what i, the keeper and water changer, has time for in my life.

Ill take the advice you have given me in that more water changes is not a horrible thing to do. I originally was under the impression that you do not want to perform water changes during cycling because keeping ammonia levels up was a key factor in in cultivating bacteria (asummed because of the fishless cycling method where ammonia ppm would be brought to a certain level). however, after reading some of the threads here i have come to the understanding that having such a small tank with 7 fish (not 10), there is less water to use as a buffer, where things can go wrong quickly.

once fully cycled, ill most likely be doing water changes at least on a weekly basis, if not twice a week, changing 25% of the water each time. As its such a small tank, changing that amount of water doesnt take too long. removing and replacing an icecream tub of water would be perfect! (one trip to the sink) but this is all assuming my tank is fully cycled and not overfeeding

One of my main reasons for starting this tread was to figure out what to do with my tank while all the readins where"0's". youve answer my question. Water changes!! however...? my main goal was to figure out when my tank was cycled (why else test for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates?) having a completely cycled tank would allow me to start breeding my fish, carry more fragile fish, and make it a whole lot easier to set up a new, bigger tank
im assuming ill just have to wait until the "average" time for cycling has expired (8 weeks or so?)