Please Help..

D

DenisVarghese

Small Fish
#1
Oct 12, 2011
14
0
0
A, A
#1
Saturday 17th of Sep
I bought a 25Ltr fluval chi from my LFS they advised to set it up, test the water and return with a sample after 3 days and add a hardy fish like a Danio or molly if water showed normal results..
I set the tank up, added the dechlorinator and also added a cycle boost (Nutrafin Cycle) by Wednesday the tank went milky cloudy but cleared up by Friday.

Saturday 24th of Sep
We took a sample to the LFS and the readings were perfect got a Zebra Danio. Also put in a small live plant.

Wednesday 28th of Sep
Did a 10% water change and added cycle.
Throughout the week the Danio was happily swimming around the tank around/through ornaments feeding properly etc..

Saturday 1st Oct
We took a sample to the LFS again, the readings were perfect bought a Male Guppy. as soon as we released the Guppy in the tank he started exploring around and approaching the Danio inquisitively.. The Danio dint like the attention and distanced himself..

Sunday 2nd Oct
Noticed a trail of slimy poo coming out of Danio's anal fin.

Monday 3rd Oct
Came back from work and saw Danio literally sitting on the gravel motionless switched the lights on he started to move but was very lethargic.. and kept to the top of the tank. his gills appeared reddish, tail fin was drooping a bit and he was holding his pectoral fins towards his body.... on the same night I left the tank for a bit when I came back there was a streak of mixed food and goo on the plant looked like the Danio had been sick / vomited.

Tuesday 4th Oct
The Danio was found dead on the gravel.
The guppy was swimming around happily without any signs of stress.
I suspected an ammonia / nitrate or nitrite spike but the test kit I ordered was in Transit.
I changed 10% of the water the same day and added cycle to elevate any spikes.. Dint want to do more as it was just 2 days since we added a guppy and dint want to stress him out with a major change.

Thursday 6th Oct
Water Chemistry taken
PH 8.2
Ammonia 0.4
Nitrate 35
Nitrite 1.2
15% water changed after tests and cycle added

Sunday 9th Oct
20% water changed and cycle added

Tuesday 11th Oct
Water Chemistry taken
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 100
Nitrite 3.3
20% water Changed and Cycle added

Wednesday 12th Oct
Water Chemistry taken
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 70
Nitrite 1.6
20% water Changed & Double Dose of Cycle added


From the day I bought the guppy till now he has never eaten properly.. when I put in flakes he tastes it and then goes away. if I put in pellets he eats it bit by bit..
I have read on many forums to only put as much as they can eat in 1-2 mins but since the guppy takes a nibble, goes away swimming then comes back and takes a nibble intermittently I leave the food in for some time it sometimes eats 50-60% of a pellet in 1 hr and then I siphon out the residue to avoid it rotting.
I also tried feeding it blood worms but it dint seem interested.. goes in, takes a nibble and swims away.. & I end up siphoning it out after 15-20 mins..
I feed the guppy every alternate day..


Can someone please help me with my questions
  • I fail to understand why the Danio died ? Don’t think it would be a water chemistry problem as it should have also affected the Guppy.. or itcould have been sick as when I went to the LFS the following week I saw the Danio tank was under treatment.
  • Why does the guppy seem more interested in constantly eating something from the aquarium glass walls... than fish food ?? I dint clean the glass walls as afraid it may take away good bacteria..
  • Why did my Nitrate and Nitrite spike in spite of 0 Ammonia ??
Appreciate any help / comments / advice / actions please
 

PlecoCollector

PlecoCollector

Superstar Fish
#2
Aug 21, 2005
1,430
0
0
34
Clinton, NY
#2
I see some problems here that I think might have led to the trouble you ran into, so let's see if we can't figure this out! I'm going to go by the date to make it easier~

Saturday 17th of Sep
When you first set up a tank, your water will test perfect, unless your tap water has some extreme pH, hardness, or nitrates. Usually stores tell you a wait a day to make sure that all the equipment is working, NOT so the water will balance. It's sterile when it goes it, so it's sterile three days later when nothing new has been added.
You should only add bacterial supplements when you're adding fish. The bacteria will starve without something to feed it (fish waste... yummy!). So when the water when cloudy it was the bacteria you added and the clarity by Friday was most likely because the entire colony starved and died. It's essentially a wasted dosage of Cycle.

Saturday 24th of Sep
Like I said before, your reading would be perfect, as there was nothing in there.
A Zebra Danio is a great starting fish- for a tank larger than 6 gallons. The size and shape of the Chi is not made for a fast, darting schooling fish like the Zebra Danio. I personally hate selling them for 10 gallon tanks for this reason, but I have to make the customer happy! A single Zebra Danio will be very prone to stress because it's not in a group, which may have added stress on top of more stress. The store's other suggestion of a Molly would have been worse, so at least it was the best of the worst. A couple of Platy, which tolerate small groups better, may have been a better course to take.

Wednesday 28th of Sep
Water change was good- Cycle probably should have been added along with the fish when you first put it in.

Saturday 1st Oct
IMO, fish should NEVER be added during a cycle unless you lose all of them. It creates a mini-cycle in most cases and does way more harm than good. Regardless if readings, a tank that new probably would not show strong signs of cycling, yet.

Monday 3rd Oct
That sounds like ammonia burn and stress because of high ammonia. If you put this on a timeline, this would be about the point that an ammonia spike would begin. All those symptoms suggest stress. This is why it's good to have a test kit at home- it's important to be able to test the water immediately upon signs of toxicity like this. Fish cannot vomit (though they can spit up what they just ate), so I'm not sure what was on the plant, unless it was droppings. The best course of action here, IMO, would have been a 10-30% water change to reduce some of the concentration of ammonia.

Tuesday 4th Oct
I'm sorry you lost the Danio :(
Sounds like you did everything okay here- the water change was a good idea.

Thursday 6th Oct
Your ammonia was going down and the nitrite rising- looks good. Did you test your tap water by any chance? That Nitrate level is very high for such a new tank, bacterial supplement or not.

Sunday 9th Oct
Well done.

Tuesday 11th Oct
Woah. That's a very VERY high Nitrate reading so quickly! Nitrate at that level is toxic to fish. How much were you feeding? That suggests a lot of waste being processed, more than should be coming from a single guppy. Nitrite spike looks right.

Wednesday 12th Oct
Looks like the water changes are helping- glad to see the nitrates going down!


You said the guppy never ate right- how much food were you adding? Fish under stress have a tendency to eat less and I usually recommend feeding fish during the cycle less anyway, to reduce the amount of waste going into the tank.
Fish are opportunity feeders- when they see food, they graze on it, no matter how much or how little is there. Healthy fish can go days without food with no adverse side effects. It may have been better to feed much less than you were, than having the food sitting in the tank for hours, even though you did eventually remove it. A lot of that food will break down and cause problems.


Your questions:
I think the Danio died from a mixture of stress and ammonia poisoning. It's fair to assume that there may have been something wrong with it from the start, but even the LFS cannot be certain of its healthy before it's shipped. Danio are generally hardy fish, but that cannot be applied to all cases!

Your guppy is probably stressed and thus, not eating well. Give him some time.

You did have ammonia, but you were lucky in that the spike was quick. Here's how the cycle usually works:
Ammonia spike, 0 Nitrite, 0 Nitrate
Ammonia down, small Nitrite, 0 Nitrate
Ammonia 0, Nitrite spike, small Nitrate
Ammonia 0, Nitrite down, rising Nitrate
Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, steady Nitrate

When your nitrite spikes, the ammonia is usually being full processed, thus, the 0 reading. Your Nitrate spike was a bit odd, but I think it was decomposing food. No two cycles are alike, but the general readings of yours look normal. Keep in mind, bacterial supplements help reduce the time and severity of cycle spikes, but do not eliminate them. I think people sometimes assume they prevent the cycle all together. Your nitrite actually stayed kind of low, compared to what I've seen, so the product was doing its job.


I really hope that helped a bit! :)
 

D

DenisVarghese

Small Fish
#4
Oct 12, 2011
14
0
0
A, A
#4
@ PlecoCollector Thankyou for the detailed advice..

Further information to your queries...

I see some problems here that I think might have led to the trouble you ran into, so let's see if we can't figure this out! I'm going to go by the date to make it easier~

I did not know that a zebra danio is a schooling fish.. :( shall keep that in mind..
How bout Guppies is my guppy ok on his own till a few weeks (I just want to waiti till the conditions stabilise before bringin in more one by one) dont intend to exceed more than 4-5 guppies

I am constantly monitoring my guppy for signs of red gills or ammonia burns.. do you think the nitrate & nitrite spike for a short period would have affected him atall ? the gooey stuff mixed with food dint look like droppings unless he had a diarrhoea..

I am not sure what caused a huge spike in nitrate and nitrite inspite of a 20% water change 48 hours ago...

Shall do another big water change tonight 30-35%.. dont want to do more as it would probably mean loosing some bacteria, and a lot of new water..

I shall reduce feeding what is the safe number of days i can avoid feeding the guppy; i dont want to starve it.. but then dont want to poison the water with food waiting for the guppy to eat..


Thankyou once again for explaining the Ammonia cycle.. it definatelty helped a lot

D
 

Kiara1125

Kiara1125

Superstar Fish
#6
Jan 12, 2011
1,142
0
0
Florida
#6
Don't worry about starving your guppy. Fish can go a good week without food and sometimes I'll only feed my fry and I'll feed the adults when I have time. You can also get some Glo-Fish because of the fact that the are iridescent and they glow brighter when the water is more poluted. I've found that this shine can help with monitoring the tank. Why don't you do some research on them and think about getting some?? They're just genetically altered (not in a bad way, it doesn't affect their health or life span) Danios.

I started out with Platies because they were hardy and I really wanted fry, but now I want so much less!!! I hope that you keep us posted and that everything goes well. Unfortunately I cannot go on this website as much as I want to anymore because my computer broke. I'm now on the one at school since the teacher was nice and my classwork is done. :D
 

D

DenisVarghese

Small Fish
#8
Oct 12, 2011
14
0
0
A, A
#8
Today I tested the Tap water first
here are Tap water readings
PH 8.2
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 8
Nitrite 0


Then I Tested the Tank water

Ammonia 0
Nitrate 30
Nitrite 1.8

Ammonia and Nitrate better than yesterday but Nitrite slightly higher than today

did a 35% water change and added a double dose of Cycle.

not fed the guppy I hope these readings will go to normal by regular water changes.

Ami I going in the right direction

Any comments / tips appreciated
 

FlameTetra333

FlameTetra333

Large Fish
#9
Jul 18, 2011
291
0
0
underwater
#9
PlecoCollector is right. Zebra Danios are too active for the tank. You can't get a betta either because it will kill the guppy (the betta mistakes the guppy for another betta). You could add 3 ghost shrimps tho.
 

PlecoCollector

PlecoCollector

Superstar Fish
#11
Aug 21, 2005
1,430
0
0
34
Clinton, NY
#11
@ Kiara1125
Glofish are genetically altered Zebra Danio. Unfortunately they will fall under the category of too active for the aquarium size. Though their iridescent qualities are good for checking water pollutants, it's not fair to subject them to a tank where they will 1) be in poor water conditions from the start and 2) not have adequate space to thrive and thus become ill from stress.



@ DenisVarghese
Your guppy should be just fine living in solitude until you water stabilizes. Most livebearers benefit greatly from living in schools, but do not have to be in one. Once your tank is full balanced, you could probably safely do 5-8 guppies (granted they're all male and will not reproduce) so long as you kept up well with maintenance.

Any spike can cause problems, which is why nitrates are usually toxic at high levels. This is why water changes are so important. Don't worry so much about taking water out and killing bacteria. If you're siphoning out the water from the gravel (as in doing a gravel vac as well) that can cause problems, but most of your bacteria does not live in the water column, so just taking out water will not impact it very strongly.

I think feeding your guppy twice a week will suffice- as others have said, a healthy fish can easily go a week without food, though we tend to project human or companion animal feeding schedules on them and assume they need fed constantly. Just add a little flake food and, if all is right in his little brain, he'll go after it. Remember to consider stress to be a reason for him not eating, so don't be too alarmed!

It might be a good idea to start doing water changes with spring water, especially since your tank is small. Since your tap water has a nitrate reading to start (was it 8 or 80, BTW? I only ask because I'm unaware of any test kits that measure nitrate in any less than increments of 5, unless you're using a digital test), it may be best to add water with a nitrate reading of 0. It's going to be difficult to alleviate nitrates when your tap water has them. Don't fret on the nitrite- it's in its spike and it should go down soon! Cycling is a waiting game... a very very annoying waiting game!


If you're looking for tankmates later down the road, I can suggest a few (and I'm sure others will add more!):
Guppies (keep all males or you'll have too many babies to handle!)
Cory Cats (pygmy are the best, but you can do a trio of any kind otherwise)
Oto cats (your best bet at an algae eater, if you're looking. A pair would be nice!)
Platies (a trio would also do well- probably want to stick with all males)
Shrimp (I prefer algae eating -amano- shrimp, but ghost or cherry will work too)
Keeping in mind that I don't suggest adding all of these species- but they're all smaller types that can be considered!

Keep us updated!
 

D

DenisVarghese

Small Fish
#12
Oct 12, 2011
14
0
0
A, A
#12
Thankyou all for your response

@FlameTetra333
i only intend to have around 4 guppies


@PlecoCollector
not sure if i should put 3 females with one male or make it all male to avoid overcrowding with babies..
but then again not sure if it would be unfair on males to make it an all male tank

I did vaccum the gravel as there was a lot of poo, uneaten food etc in there.. shall avoid doing that for the next couple of large water changes.

I will do another water change today...

is there any way i can eliminate nitrate traces in my tap water completely or do anything to reduce it ? what if i use shop bought distilled water the ones sold in super markets for cars ?

Thankyou onceagain for your contributions / feedback

I shall keep you all posted..

D
 

Kiara1125

Kiara1125

Superstar Fish
#13
Jan 12, 2011
1,142
0
0
Florida
#13
But remember FlameTetra, not all bettas are demons, lol. My betta is the sweetest thing and she never harmed my guppies or any other fish. Plus, I added the guppy after I have her in the tank for several months. I just ploped him in, she checked him out, and then left him alone. I never have to worry about my betta.

All bettas are different, so I'm not saying that every betta is going to be like mine. If you really want to get a betta, then try a small female. That way, she grows up with the guppy and might not hurt him. Plus, look for a betta that's already in a community tank, this might ensure that it's more docile. If it's swimming around and not bullying or being bullied by the other fish, then you can make sure that it has a good temperment. That's what I did with mine.

Also, FlameTetra, how much was your Halfmoon Betta?? I really want one, because I'm getting a male betta, and I was looking at how beautiful the HM are. Plus, where did you get him?
 

D

DenisVarghese

Small Fish
#14
Oct 12, 2011
14
0
0
A, A
#14
Hi Looks like my readings are stabilising

Nitrate coming down but nitrite still at 0.8 after major water changes

Figers crossed

14th Friday Night

Ammonia 0
Nitrate 30
Nitrite 0.8

did a 35% water Change; added cycle

15th Saturday Evening
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 20
Nitrite 0.8

did a 35% water Change; added cycle


Thankyou all for your contributions / feedback

Shall post more readings and updates as soon as i have any
 

D

DenisVarghese

Small Fish
#18
Oct 12, 2011
14
0
0
A, A
#18
Hi Folks

Looks like the readings have come down further..

16th Sunday Evening


Amonia 0
Nitrate 10
Nitrite 0.3

Rinsed the filter in the siphoned out aquarium water
35% water Changed
Single Dose of Cycle added

Shall continue to monitor.. Once It looks like there wont be any more spikes i shall drop to 20% water change every other day. and gradually reduce to 25% per week

Thank you all once again.. i am glad i asked you the question else i wouldnt have known what to do, have done 15-20% water changes, kept trying to feed the guppy and would have lost him...

D
 

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