70+ Gallon tank questions (plumbing, water movement, setup etc)

[FroggyFox]

I just read through every thread containing the word "refugium" in this forum Yes back to when mft was just a 10G tank Learned lots...but now I have some more specific questions.

I've been planning to set up a large saltwater tank starting in the next few months. No rush, I'm not rich so I'll have to buy equipment as I can and do research in the meantime.

Here's what I got so far as an outline...and a couple of questions (bolded for your convenience lol)

72G Bowfront tank & Stand
Lighting (no idea haven't started researching yet)
Skimmer (not sure on a brand or size, but definitely need one)
Lots of LR & water movement to match
Sand

Stock...have discussed this in depth with a few people and I THINK I have a pretty good idea on it and found some fish/critters that I really like and an idea of the differences in stocking in a SW tank vs a FW tank.

I want LOTS of crabs and shrimps and critters that aren't fish.
a seastar
Mandarin
some green chromis' (a group of 5 or so?)
a horseshoe crab (I know they get big...but if it gets too big I'll figure out what to do with it...I think they're cool lookin)
a dwarf lionfish (maybe...I'd prefer not to have all of my critters eaten...but they're so cool)

*Uhm...the rest of my stock I'll need to update at home because I can't come up with some of them off the top of my head. This is why I write things down.*

My big question right now is actually similar to a gentleman who just posted a little bit ago wanting a simple explanation on setting up a sump. I've read through here and plan on reading some more elsewhere and in books...but I'd like some opinions too. How do you all deal with water changes on larger tanks? As far as I see...adding sump/refugium that is just plumbed into the main tank have their benefits in adding water to the whole system, but doesn't that just increase the amt of water you need to do for water changes? Where do you keep your water to put in? I was kind of formulating that my "refugium" could just be where I age water for my water changes and not have it plumbed into the main tank (aside from the fact that I'm terrible with construction and plumbing projects...I can and will call the experts in (dad) if need be...but I'd love to do this stuff myself) but if I'm growing food for my mandarin in it etc, then I guess its used water, not really fresh water to use for water changes right?

On a tank that is 70+ gallons...can I get away with not having a sump/refugium and just having a supplemental tank nearby? Or should I plan on just plumbing in a refugium and finding a container to hold as many gallons of water as I need for WC's? A supplemental tank could also start out as a q-tine tank...

How many powerheads would YOU plan on...and total of how many gph would you shoot for? I read one thread and most people voted that 10-20 turnovers per hour would be best...so that'd put me 720 to 1440 gph...which is a pretty big range. I dont think I'd want ONE thing that was 720 gph (if they even make that) I should probably split it up...but how would you personally do it to maximize water flow to the right areas of the tank? 3 powerheads?

 

[wayne]

1. A 10% water change for you is 7 gallons which isn't much

2. Yes, but having a sump is a big plus. You'll need at least one supplmental tanks anyway
3. If I had a sump possibly zero powerheads, I'd use the return from the sump plus another closed loop OR a pair of tunze turbelles

4. A dwarf lion is perfectly possible but will eat your shrimp and chromis

The horseshoe crab is a bad idea. Not a reef creature, needs a big sandflat

 

[1979camaro]

agree with wayne completely. as far as the refugium, if you do plumb it in you will probably want to situate it above the tank if possible so your little critters don't turn into puree in the pumps. as far as storing water for w/c there really isn't much need. mix up a couple five gallon buckets a night in advance and let a powerhead run in them. then take ten gallons out of the tank the next. i use a powerhead on a tube to move the water from my mixing buckets into the sump for convenience but i doubt it would be possible to move the water to the top of the display

for waterflow:
if you go with a sump i agree with wayne, use the return and a closed loop. clean and easy.

if you go without a sump i would still consider going with a closed loop and the tunzes

 

[FroggyFox]

wow its a good thing I dont have a lot of money lying around, I can tell this is going to take more time than I thought. I'm very much not mechanically inclined. In reality I dont HAVE to plumb a 2nd tank in right? I mean I could not do a sump or a refugium right? I dont want to do 3...so I think the option of setting up a refugium and doing filtration inside the tank is a more attractive option to me.

I tried looking up "tunze turbelles" and didn't get a whole lot except references to them...where would one find this contraption and what is it? And why is a closed loop better than using powerheads?

Stock list I had here at home (no crucifying me please, I am obviously open for suggestions or comments):
-Hermit crab(s) & Shrimps
-Some other interesting critters...other types of crabs? one of those electric scallops?
-horseshoe crab (yes I heard you Wayne...I'm listening... but but I saw a tiny one and darn was it cute...)
-fromia starfish
-mandarin (add after tank has been running for awhile to make sure there is enough food)
-Green Chromis – (4-6…schooling fish)
-2 small clownfish (not sure what kind)
-Black and white butterfly fish (I really like this fish, it looks like a Moorish idol)
-Lemonpeel Angelfish (ONE angelfish, possibly two if they’re the same size and introduced at the same time. May fight with each other. Other angels possible would be Coral Beauty or Dwarf Flame, but I like the Lemonpeel)
-Chevron Tang (expensive and would even be happier in a tank bigger than this one...but reading about it I dont think its completely out of the question...)
-Fuzzy Dwarf Lionfish/ Dwarf Zebra Lionfish (…will eat anything it can fit in its mouth. Possibly an “add later” fish...or not at all...just think its a supercool fish and wanted it on the list)

Too many, not enough? Anything to start fishy worldwar3?

 

[wayne]

No you don't need a sump, it just makes life tidy. A refugium is nice, but not essential although you will never regret having one. They are however reasonabley easy to retrofit. Mine is a small plastic tank. I pump water from the main display into it, it flows out of a hole I drilled in the side, down a tube and back to the display.

A closed loop is nicer than powerheads simply as when you start wanting a lot of flow powerheads become increasingly annoying. The keep coming loose, too many things in the tnak, plus they're not ususally of sterling quality. Instead you can just get a big eheim pump or iwaki or whatever, and plumb it to suck water from the pump and then back through a spraybar setup or similar. Research closed loop and manifold system on reef central, particularly Anthony Calfo's problem. Really the answer is theat they're simply more 'elegant'.
The exception is the Tunze Turbelle type of powerheads which are awsomely powerful, and can be hooked up to a Tunze 'controller'. Two of these would be quite capable of giving you all the flow you need , but are costy. Roger Vitko of Tunze USA also has a column on ReefCentral. Two of these + the controller will run you some hundreds of $$$ (for some 1000's of gph of flow) but as flow is superimportant in marine tanks it is what I plan to do for my upcoming project. Seios are far cheaper, but you don't get the variable flow options, however that's not the end of the world. Certainly 2 seio's will be much better than 4 maxi jets 1200's for example

Electric scallops almost always starve to death, and both them and horsehoe crabs rate high on the list of unethical buys.
Lemon peel is fine , NOT reef safe apparently. Chev tang is fine, I have a Kole.

I can see the appeal of the dwarf lions, but be aware their natural diet is shrimp and crabs.

What are the tank dimensions?

 

[dbacksrat]

definetly spend some time on reefcentral--that site is full of all kinds of information

a note on hermit crabs--they are great for some cleanup, but tend to be too destructive to other life and seem to all disappear after awhile

 

[FroggyFox]

Any suggestions on different crabs? or critters? I just used the scallop cuz someone told me they were neat I didn't really read up on them. They're filter feeders right?

I was looking at a 72Bowfront...dimensions are 48x18x22. OR The 'normal' 75G dimensions are 48x18x20. Since the dimensions are so close to each other, I really like the look of the bowfront, even though its a couple inches taller than the normal one.

I DID register on reefcentral last night and introduced myself to my local club...didn't get a chance to look around too much though.

Found the Tunze site. Doesn't look like they're COMPLETELY outrageous...but...yeah not cheap. I think I'd have to get two of the 1600/2 series...each does 427 gph and cost ~$110USD...the next step up costs $160USD and does 792gph. A single controller will control 2 turbelles (as long as you have the right attachments etc)...and costs ~$54. Photoelectric cell ~$14, branch adapter ~$31. SO if you include shipping and what not...less than 400? The "night mode" and being able to turn them off by flipping a switch or change the flow is actually really neat and functional.

 

[1979camaro]

they are filter feeders.

with the appropriate lights clams do quite well. Maxima and Deresa both have pretty amazing color.

there are a lot of interesting inverts out there...it is kind of tough to make a suggestion...have you considered a couple starfish (maybe linkias). for crabs ive always like emeralds and porcelains