ammonia spike

[steve b]

took advise from last post. To stablize 55 gal tank.
Got tank almost perfect except for trates. Level was over 150 and couldn't get it down.
Tried nitrex and other sponges and they were a joke.
Did water change after 3 weeks .(5gal)
Nothing happened.Did 10gal the next week and nothing changed.Trates still at 150.
Come home next day to find cloudy and wipped out tank.
Checked water immed. and found ammonia was about 8.0 How this happen I 'm clueless.
All other levels normal (ph,trites)
discovered nitrates fell to between 40-50.
What made all this happen ?
This is the 3rd tank I crashed and trying to not do the same thing twice.
Any help appreciated.

Thanks
Steve b

 

[toodles]

I am really sorry to hear about your fish! What a horrible thing to come home to.....

Let's see, things that can make sudden ammonia spikes.....the first thing that comes to mind is a dead animal in the tank. If you checked the ammonia after all the fish were dead, your reading might be from that......how are the nitrites? Also, where exactly are you getting your make up water from? I use regular tap water, but it does contain chloramines.....if I didn't use a product to break the chlorine and ammonia bond, (and this stuff also neutralizes the resulting ammonia) I would be in big trouble.
Even though your nitrates did come down, the levels you posted are still way too high. Nitrates can kill saltwater fish, do you still have the UG?

 

[wayne]

I missed your last posts , please repeat your setup and history. I'm sorry to hear about your losses, it can be very demoralising for this to happen

 

[wayne]

OK, seen it. Well to answer the immediate question , the ammonia spike is coming from dead material, possibly die off from the live rock and associated organisms. Presumably you have the deadfish and other obvious dead stuff out.
Your nitrates are building up because your setup allows for no or inadequate denitrafication. Your tank hasn't been set up long, so you won't have good numbers of anaerobic bacteria that remove nitrates and convert them too nitrogen gas, plus I don'tthink you had a deep sand bed , you had an undergravel. Well these are famous nitrate traps as lots of decomposing stuff. + aerobic bacteria are produced in your substrate, plus you have a cannister filter. If you can't clean these things every few days, or better every day, then they too are prone to becoming big problems.
Sponges and carbon are ok, but if you have nitrates of 150, then it's just too much for them - you need to do big water changes, plus eliminate the nitrate trap - I had a similar problem - I would do a water change, and almost immediately the nitrate trap (substrate in my case) would release nitrates to the water and they went back to the bad level.
I would go back and start from scratch , assuming the worst. I would pull out the rock, clean any dieoff off, and reuse it - no problem there. I would pull out the UG and the coral sand substrate and consider a deep sand bed - ask toodles for advice on this. I would reuse the powerheads, and maybe the cannister for circulation, but I don't think I'd use the other stuff, I'd be looking to make this simple. I've neer used a UV. I'd check my water quality and refill, check my aquascaping and wait. Let the tank cycle out - check for pH to stabilise, do water changes with checked water quality to keep nitrogen waste levels under control and read a good marine fishkeeping book , the ones by Paletta and Fenner come to mind. Let the cycle really finish, then wait, get thro' the diatom algae stage and make sure things are very stable. This may well take several months, but you should see some life feom your live rock. When you're feeling good that the tank is functioning without fish, then add fish, clowns or dottybacks or a gramma , sometihng sturdy. Leave sensitive fish like the angel or mandarin till you and the tank are ready for them.
Good luck - does this make sense?

 

[steve b]

Toodles,
I buy my water and mix it in a 35 gal rubbermaid.
The water I use tests O.K.
I no longer have the U.G. filter.
I have a 4" bed of Aragonite sand.
The ammonia is still about 8 after 2 days.
The ph is 8.2
The nitrites are around 0
The trates are still around 100.
I clean everything on regular basis with old water from changes.
Been adding ammo-lock to get ammonia down but hasn't worked yet.

 

[steve b]

Should I add starter bacteria again or let it take it's own course?

 

[toodles]

I would let things take their own course at this point.


This was just something that I thought of, and I'm probably way off on this, but I have to ask. Does anyone in your home use alot of ammonia, or ammonia based cleaning products? I have heard of people losing whole tanks because they were cleaning the glass (or windows/mirrors near the tank) and the ammonia was taken up by the protein skimmer. Just a thought........

 

[wayne]

That's really high ammonia - I think I would (unfortuneately) be doing a big (50%) water change to get that down as it's going to hammer anything left on the live rock and inhibit cycling and development of the sand bed. Also those nitrates are still way high, so the water change might hopefully fix that too.
You're cycling off the live rock right, no shrimp or anything else.

When ammonia goes down I wonder what nitrate might be then? But when this hapens do you know anybody, including the store, who will sell or give you a few cups of their mature substrate to kick start getting it populated.

But your new setup sounds good, so don't give up hope!

 

[steve b]

Toodles
No one uses ammonia cleaners.
I clean my glass with water and a rag.
Should I be adding new starter bacteria to recycle the tank.
Should I empty the tank completely of water and start all over.
Seems like problem is in water and maybe new tank full will help start over right this time

 

[wayne at home]

But I thought you'd done a water test on your 'input water?

If you have live rock starter bacteria are a waste of money for you.
Pull out your live rock and smell it - does it smell 'good',like a salty ocean smell, or bad and rotten -is there obvious dead stuff? If so clean it off.
How much skimmate is your skimmer producing ?

 

[steve b]

Wayne
I did test my input water. The bad water reference was in the tank.My tank does smell a little. Nothing dead looking or decaying.
My skimmer is putting out about 30-40 oz. a day.
I've been running it wide open for months
Until 2 weeks ago I was not getting anything.
Seems like now I'm getting maybe too much ? ? ?
Thinking about draining tank and starting from scratch again.
Doesn't seem like water changes are going to help with these levels.
Ammonia levels are still about 8.0 and trates are down to about 100 and trites are around 0 and PH is 8.2.
Changed approx. 5gal, 10 gal, 10 gal, 20 gal.

 

[toodles]

As Wayne at home said, it isn't your water causing this.....it's something else in the tank.
Whether it's the decaying life on the rock or something else, what you can do is give the rocks a good blast with a powerhead, or take them out and give a quick scrub as Wayne suggested. Either way you will want to try and siphon out any gunk that is suspended in the water. Make sure you change your filter pad about an hour after this too (give it time to collect whatever debris it can).
I wouldn't add any starter bacteria as you bound to still have some of them in your tank.
Just be patient and let us know how it's going!

 

[steve b]

It's been a week and my ammonia levels are still about 8.0
Been adding ammo-lock or ammo detox.
all other levels are great.
Is tank recycling ?
Don't know how to get ammo levels down.
Just cleaned my 404 canister last week also.
Would this affect my ammo ?
Any suggestions ?
Don't want to crash and burn again.

Thanks

 

[BrianH]

Adding ammonia detoxifiers does not remove the ammonia from your system, they detoxify the ammonia making it harmless to your fish. The problem is that the test kits will still show ammonia in your tank. I would stop using the chemicals and let your tank adjust naturally.

Brian

 

[steve b]

today is day 10 of ammonia take over.
Levels are still about 8.0
All other levels are
nitrites -0
nitrates-0
PH-8.2
s.g.-1.021
temp 75
Can't keep my skimmer emptied fast enough.
I have a visijet 100 on my 55 gal.
Should I be looking for a larger one ?
any suggestions?
How do I get rid of this ammo take over ?
Would like to add fish again but want to be sure I will not croak them again ?
Any helpful suggestions appreciated .

Thanks,
Steve

 

[wayne at home]

If it's skimming that fast its working ok. Do not think of adding fish till ammonia is zero. You're going to have to go for big , 50% + water changes to get the ammonia number down. Also get your test kit checked, most hobbyist kits are of incredibly poor accuracy.
Does it still smell? How good is your local lfs(S?) - if you think tey're good, see if one can actually look at your tank. Do you have a photo?

 

[steve b]

I'll try another tester.
Yes my water does have a slight smell to it.
Don't have LFS close to us.
Tank looks clear and clean.
Should I be getting a bigger skimmer to keep up.
Is there an actual ammonia remover like amquel or something to try ?
Afraid if I do another big water change everything will go out of wack.
Should I be thinking of starting fron scratch again ?

 

[thecorpsegrindr]

My advice to you would be to let the tank run empty for a month. Let it completely cycle with nothing alive in it, except for live rock. Check your water regularly, about 2-3 times a week. The ammonia will continue to get higher, peak and then drop to 0. The nitrites will do the same. The nitrates will do the same, once the nitrates have done this it will be completely safe for you to add one or 2 HARDY fish. Adding any more than this will shock your system and send it back into another cycle. If you add anything live to your system as it right now they will probably die. I know this will work for you because I had a similar problem recently. I had a 55 gal (like you) up and cycling (to move my beloved lionfish into) and unexpectedly had to go to florida in the middle of the cycle. I had to entrust my tank to my roomates care. My roomates decided to stock the tank with like 6 damsels, a yellow tang, and a starfish. The tang got ich and killed everything, not to mention that my roomates thought the hair algae smothering everything was a good thing. So it turned my live rock into base rock. When I returned home I cleared all the algae out, scrubbed down the live rock and let the system run empty for about 5 weeks (protein skimmer and all) it also helps to leave the lights off for most of this period as the bacteria will grow slightly faster in the dark. I did not take the water out and start new with that. I know leaving the tank empty for a month sounds really boring, but I believe it is your safest option. I now have a very stable tank with excellent water quality which houses 2 porcupines, a coral beauty, a starfish, an urchin and countless crabs and snails. Also one last word of advice if you MUST add something before the month is up, add a few small hermit crabs and/or snails. They are MUCH less expensive than any fish, help cycle the tank just as well and are pretty hardy. I used scarlet hermits and astrea snails. Please feel free to get in touch with me if you would like to discuss this more.

 

[steve b]

Thanks for help.
Drained tank last night completely cleaned everything.
Filled back up today with fresh water.
Considering going back to freshwater and keeping discus fish like I did several years ago.
Don't really want to give up but don't want to keep croaking beautiful fish either.
will decide this week to give it another shot or just let it beat me.

 

[jaws2]

what did you have in there??