Angelfish Dilemma

[Big Vine]

Simply put, my goal is to have a breeding pair in my 38 gal. tank.
I started out with 6 young juvies early last year, but 4 of them were killed (no, they weren't sick). My remaining two seemed to get along okay, aside from the occasional lip-locking/pushing 'contests' here and there. The larger of the two was clearly dominant in that regard...

...but only up until about the past month or so...

It has since become sickly with some sort of mystery illness (http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=159640), and the once smaller angelfish has now surpassed the sickly one in terms of growth/size. It's been a couple weeks now, and although the sickly one seems responsive and still feeds, it is nowhere near representative of a breed-worthy specimen. I am now faced with the prospect of culling this sickly little fella.

Keeping in mind my goal of breeding angelfish, how would you proceed under these circumstances?
BV

 

[Lotus]

Tough situation.

I personally have a hard time euthanizing anything. I'd rather let it die in a happy environment.

I'd also be worried that it might infect another fish, although from your pics, it could be that the fish has a genetic problem with its organs/digestive system.

Adding another angel to the mix may just make the sickly one go downhill faster.

 

[Big Vine]

from your pics, it could be that the fish has a genetic problem with its organs/digestive system

I am leaning toward a genetic issue as well.
No other fish are showing any symptoms of distress whatsoever.

Adding another angel to the mix may just make the sickly one go downhill faster.

Absolutely.
And that is why I would need to euthanize the sickly angelfish prior to adding anything to the tank.

Certainly I cannot expect anyone to make the euthanasia decision for me.
However, I would like to know how you would proceed with this setup IF/WHEN the sickly angelfish is euthanized.

Keep the healthy one and add angels as potential mates?
If so, how many? What if the new ones pair-up, leaving my healthy one 'high & dry'?

Or start from scratch with 5-6 young juvies?

BV

 

[Lotus]

I think I'd get some Euthanase: Aquarium Fish Medications: Euthanase Clove Oil Treatment

Or use the clove oil/vodka method: Fish Euthanasia

I'm guessing the Euthanase is basically clove oil in alcohol. It's supposedly the most humane way to kill fish without resorting to blunt force trauma or a blender (both humane, but too grisly for this wuss).

I think it might be better to start with another batch of young fish, unless you can find a mated pair somewhere, or know what you have and can find one of the opposite sex. There are almost always pairs for sale on Aquabid, if you want to get a pair.

By the way, be prepared to set up a largish tank for fry. They grow fast and need plenty of room.

 

[Big Vine]

I was hoping to be able to hang onto my healthy angelfish and find he/she a mate, but either way it would end up being a forced pair---and that's if I actually get it right in terms of sexing and finding two compatible fish.

You're probably right...starting over may be the best bet.
I could find a mated pair, but I prefer the idea of keeping fish that I have mostly raised myself.

be prepared to set up a largish tank for fry. They grow fast and need plenty of room.

What would your minimum recommendation be?
I can shuffle things around to accommodate fry in the 20 gal. long, but that's about the best I could do. Somehow I get the feeling that by 'largish tank,' you mean something bigger than a 20 gal. long.

way to kill fish without resorting to blunt force trauma or a blender (both humane, but too grisly for this wuss).

I appreciate your suggestions.
I have already decided that I will opt for something more along the lines of blunt force trauma (pliers). For a larger fish, swiftly cutting the head off with a sharp knife would be my method of choice, but an angelfish (particularly one the size of my sickly one) can easily have its head crushed in one firm squeeze of the pliers.

Sounds kinda morbid, I know, but both methods result in instantaneous death.
BV

 

[Big Vine]

be prepared to set up a largish tank for fry. They grow fast and need plenty of room.

What would your minimum recommendation be?

I can shuffle things around to accommodate fry in the 20 gal. long, but that's about the best I could do. Somehow I get the feeling that by 'largish tank,' you mean something bigger than a 20 gal. long. Or is my situation workable, in your opinion?

BV

 

[Lotus]

When I was breeding angelfish, I usually raised the eggs in a separate tank (10g). Once they got to dime size, I moved mine to a 55g.

It will depend on how many you end up with, but it's not unusual to have a spawn of several hundred. Even if only 50 or so make it, that's a lot of fish! You could raise the fry in rubbermaids or multiple tanks, etc. That way, you can determine how many tanks you need, based on how many fry you have. You probably need to grow them out to at least an inch body size before you can sell them/give them away. Smaller than that, and they seem very fragile.

 

[Big Vine]

Thanks Lotus.
If/when I actually get a spawning pair, I'm sure I'll be somewhat overrun with fry, but that's half the fun, right?

BV

 

[Lotus]

Yeah, plus the fry are cute, once they get the "angel" shape. There's nothing like 50 or 100 pairs of eyes staring at you and begging for food

Either of your methods for euthanasia would be fine, I think. You can also put them down a running garbage disposal.

Good luck with getting a new pair

 

[skratikans]

or you could shock kill them and simply put them into a bucket of water with ice...die instantly and no blood and guts anywhere

 

[Lotus]

While freezing appears to be humane on the surface, it's actually a fairly slow and painful death for fish compared to clove oil or blunt force trauma.

 

[skratikans]

I have personally witnessed both types:blunt and freezing and honestly from what I have seen ...with temp shock- boom the fish is dead, there is a chemical, a type of derived narcotic that we use to humanely kill fish in our lab, and honestly the fish moves and dies much slower than it would with severe temp. shock, and the blunt trauma...well IMO its a bit messy, I would personally cull a fish with temp shock...it dies almost instantaneously...especially when there are very large temp differences, JMO

 

[Big Vine]

Good luck with getting a new pair

Thanks Lotus!

Preggo guppy in the 5 gal. was found dead this morning---she had been getting fatter and fatter...probably fluid buildup from organ issues and/or pregnancy complications (she was full of fry...yes, I conducted an autopsy).

I've put the sickly angel into the 5 gal.
Not sure how long I'll keep him there...it's only short-term. But at least it alleviates some of the pressure of having to euthanize him right away. I'll give him a bit more time---he is very responsive and feeds heartily, yet remains sickly. Who knows---maybe he'll make a miraculous recovery and I'll be able to find him a good home?

While freezing appears to be humane on the surface, it's actually a fairly slow and painful death for fish compared to clove oil or blunt force trauma.

Is it really painful for them?
I was under the impression that cold-blooded creatures shutdown as a result of freezing in a much more 'pain-free' manner than mammals. Perhaps I've been operating under some misapprehension?

But I do wholeheartedly agree that blunt force is much more instantaneous.
I can't comment on the clove oil method, as I have not used it before. If you've got the stomach for it, blunt force is the way to go.

BV

 

[Lotus]

This is a nice article: Euthanasia in Fish

The American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) Panel on Euthanasia lists three acceptable methods of euthanasia for fish.....
Hypothermia (chilling, freezing) is not considered to be humane when used as the sole method of euthanasia because the animal is not rendered rapidly insensible to pain or distress. However, freezing is an effective method of ensuring death of a fish and may be employed after the fish is insensible from an anesthetic overdose.

 

[skratikans]

I thought this was an interesting article considering tropical fish and shock killing in general UW Policy for the Euthanasia of Fish Species - 2002 - Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee at the University of Washington

"Chilling of tropical species: The 1993 and 2000 Reports of the AVMA Panel on Euthanasia concludes that cooling to 4°C will decrease metabolism and facilitate handling of poikilothermic species. This method by itself should only be used to facilitate handling, and it does not constitute an acceptable method of euthanasia since there is no evidence that it reduces pain or is clinically efficacious. However, the panel does not discuss chilling to 4°C as a method for euthanasia for tropical species. Because tropical fish species, (i.e. zebrafish, medaka, and platyfish), have minimal to no physiologic adaptation mechanism for adjusting to cold (4°C) water, cooling to 4°C should be considered an acceptable method of euthanasia since the rapid decrease in temperature from 26°C (or higher) to 4°C induces rapid loss of consciousness and is lethal to these species. Fish euthanized by this method should not come in direct contact with the ice, because this may cause thermal burns and induce pain, but rather the ice should be added to a lowered amount of water for a contact time of 20 minutes."

 

[Big Vine]

Interesting read on both counts...thanks for sharing.

Upon adding 5 juvies to the main angelfish tank today, I quickly realized the size disparity between the newly-introduced youngins' and my healthy angelfish. Accordingly, I've decided it would be best to part with the larger one and simply start from scratch (she's now out of the tank and waiting to be rehoused tomorrow).

I'll start a thread on the new guys before too long.
BV

 

[Lotus]

Congrats! Cute little guys and gals there

 

[big54bob]

Nice Juvie angels.
Please tell me you are gonna keep the large one. Besides she is a nice looking angel.