Bolivian rams

janlo

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Nov 9, 2004
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#1
Hi

I have 2 bolivian rams in my 53 gal. community tank

They are verry peaceful with the other fishes, but agressive with each others... Is that 2 a male behavior? My lfs told me it was a couple, but i doubt it when i see them fighting...

I dont know a lot about those fishes...Anyone can tell me about those behaviors?
 

fishdude07

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Mar 30, 2004
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#3
if you can get pics, thatd be great. males look different than females (i think), so if the two you have look almost identical, chances are theyre both males or both females unless theyre still young. so if you can get us pics, we could help identify their genders.

someone correct me if im wrong about the males looking different than the females.
 

Avalon

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Oct 22, 2002
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#4
Cichlids are interesting fish to say the least. Their behavior is strangely similar to human behavior.

Cichlids can be intra-aggressive (aggression amongst their own) or inter-aggressive (aggression amongst everyone). Most dwarf cichlids are the former. Males can fight amongst themselves (when females are not present), but is more rare than aggression towards the opposite sex. Male cichlids will either pair up with a female, or harrass them to death (literally). It's kind of like a guy not wanting to reciprocate the love to the girl that's chasing him. "Get away!" is the message that he's sending..."but baby..." :D

Sometimes chasing behavior is not too much to worry about, but when it turns violent, then you should remove the weaker of the two. Natural selection at its finest here folks.
 

janlo

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Nov 9, 2004
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#5
thanx

as for pictures , i dont have one right now, but ill try to post one later. But they really look similar,although they are young. they are agressive with each other especially when they are in the same territory, or at feeding time. I dont think they will kill each other, but still, its intriguing...
 

Nov 28, 2004
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#7
This is one of the SA's I have spawned.

First thing you need to find out, do you have Mikrogeophaegus altispinoSA or altispinoSUS

What's the difference?

Behaviourally, none. Size wise and patterning wise, a little. First off, Altispinosus typically have two or three lateral (side) splotches. Altispinosa only have one, and it is usually much better defined.

Additionally, the body color of the latter (altispinosa) is typically more steadfast grey, as opposed to the (us) flashes of purple green and yellow.

Altispinosa also grow taller bodied and longer, maxing out at often over seven inches. Call me a liar if you like. I have seen such a specimen at a local breeder's warehouse.

Altispinosas, conversely, in your size tank, will not reach five inches.

Both species are impossible to sex visually. The only visual differences are in the breeding tube (Fatter and more opaque in females, thinner and translucent in males) and, occasionally, in fin extensions.

Both sexes will develop impressive extensions if well fed but males will become MUCH larger.

Unlike in the Blue Ram, M. ramirezi, longer dorsal spines ont he first four rays of the dorsal fin do not denote sexual dimorphism.

Fighting, as you are experiencing, is often a first sign of mating. Females will rigorously test males. Quite often the female is by and large the agressor in these situations. Once they do (if they do) spawn, they will select a very large, flat rock, and begin cleaining it thoroughly. A good way to tell the sexes (other than, of course, seeing which fish actually lays eggs and which excretes sperm) is to watch the fish when they are courting. A female will often force activity on a male, such as instructing him to clean a rock for her and then beating up on him whenever he is distracted. These forced tasks extend to everything, from defending the nest to gathering food for the fry. The female will push the male towards a desired object to be tasked somehow, and then dance to him (seemingly speaking in fishinese). The male will then commence the activity.

Whenever I syphoned the bottom of the tank my pair was in, the female would dance and push the male toward the syphon. If ever he backed down from attacking the plastic tube, she would beat him for a week, not allow him food, or allow him near the fry and/or eggs.



This fish is very easy to spawn. I have written a very comprehensive articel at www.pnaquaria.com (see under ARTICLES) about how to spawn them.

YOU MUST have alkaline water in the range of 7.4 to 7.6

generally, a Ph of 7.6 and a Gh og 9-12 will make altispinosus spawn almost instantly, given they have enough fat and protein in their diet. These water parameters combined with a lack of mean tank mates, low nitrates, and lots of bloodworms and high quality foods, will guarantee a spawn.

Clutches can be massive, numbering 200 for a 2" female and up to 300 for a 4". The eggs develop fungus easily so salt and a powerhead are recommended.

In both species, peculiarly, light will disfigure the young. The eggs, from the time laid, and the young, until three months old, should be kept under ONE incandescant bulb, only bright enough to see their food. Fish grown under light for the first months ALWAYS throw bent spines. The cause for this is as of yet unknown, but it is very well documented.

GOOD LUCK.
 

Nov 29, 2004
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#8
Its odd that you would say Bolivian Rams require a high PH and alkaline water to spawn, when these fish are pretty much happiest at a ph of around 6.6 and a hardness of practically nothing! Very soft acidic water suits these best.
Also, I beg to differ with you on your "sub groupings". Mikrogeophagus Altispinosa is the Bolivian Ram, Altispinosus is only the plural. I have 2 rams, and they have 1 single spot, and yet display the flashes of yellow, purple, and green that you say dont come on the 1 spot kind. Hmmm.
The easist way to tell if you have a male is watch for the tail filaments. When they grow and mature, male Bolivian Rams have a long red filament on both the top and bottom of their tail fin. They also have a red anal fin with white speckles, and the dorsal is higher, and has a definite extended red tip at the end by the tail.
I will post a picture of my male for you to see.
 

Nov 28, 2004
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#9
Thats completely incorrect. In the wild Altispinosus spawn in water of a Ph 7.5 or higher, Altispinosa at 7.0

I can't believe you would think one was plural? First off there is no such thing as plural in latin names, secondly plural would be SAS not SUS.

Thirdly, Im completely correct about the High Ph and NOBODY can raise the fry of these fish very well in acidic water- though it is possible mortality is much higher.

I find it funny you would preach to me when IM the one who has bred and sold this fish.

YES there are two species.

Your comments are so ignorant and uneducated I almost find myself in pain going through the trouble of responding- but I want the intelligent people here to have it right ;)
 

Nov 28, 2004
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#10
ALSO though it is possible you have a higher dimorphism than typical between your 2 sexes this is not normal, and my female was infact much more colorful than the male..

It is possible for SAS to have body flashes of color- I was only saying it was more TYPICAL in the SUS.

Im still right. I've actually done research.
 

nynick

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Jan 6, 2004
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#11
It is impossible to sex Bolivian Rams until you can see the genitalia. To add salt to injusry they are picky when choosing a mate. The fact that they are fighting does in no way mean that you have 2 males, could be a male and a female that doesn't like eachother.

They DO like slightly alkaline water and a PH of just above 7 as they are not Amazon fish but live in a very different environment. A hardness of "practically nothing" will probably cause problems for them.
 

wayne

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Oct 22, 2002
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#12
There is a simple difference between altispinosa and altispinosus. They are the same fish though, the difference is a naming convention....
When these fish where first described they were called Crenicara altispinosa. This is a 'male' genus, thus altispinosa.
These fish have then been reclassified as Papiliochromis altispinosus, then as Mikrogeophagus altispinosus. These are 'female' genuses. As the fish moved from a male to a female genus the altispinosa moved to alitispinosus.

There are two types of fish imported as bolivian rams. The original has a single body spot and comes from a 'white water' drainage solikely prefers a neutral, medium hardness water.

The two spot version is more unusual, and is a different, but undescribed species. This seems to do better in more acid waters.

I find it hard to believe you saw a 7 inch fish from either species, but you never know - I've seen some pretty big rams. At seven inches though I'd assume it was a geophagine, or soemthing that looked really similar like an Acaricthys
 

wayne

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Oct 22, 2002
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#13
In a similar vein, look at the naming history of the convict.
Started as Heros nigrofasciatus (male)'
Then Cichlasoma nigrofasciatum (F genus)
Now back to nigrifasciatus
 

Mar 15, 2005
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#16
you know its funny i bought rams because of their mohawk thought it was cool, have 5 in a 20 gal with a killifish 3 fat guppies and plecos now when i bought the fish i thought it would be cool to breed them, but never thought itd happen sounded complicated and too difficult but one day i woke up to see a schol of fry swimming around the tank. I immediately took all the other fish out (think the killifish ate some he was diving into the group and the rams would fight him) and Im still surprised that they bred maybe i got lucky? I fed them bloodworms and kept lots of cover with water plants rocks and thats about it. now hopefully most of them will survive!