Can someone please reassure me?

[Tarah]

It would have been nice to find this site BEFORE I bought fish! Ah well, I have several questions. I have a 10 gal tank that cycled for 4 days before I added some fish last night. I have 2 cardinal tetras, 2 long-finned red minor tetras, and one male, dwarf gourami. They seem to be eating fine, but I've been worried about the social structure. The gourami has been chasing the long-finned tetra some. The more I watch, the more I notice that one of the long-finned tetras seems unusually agressive and may be bothering him. It (the tetra) seems to chase it's partner AND hangs around the gourami as if to pester it. So I can't decide if it's the tetra or the gourami that is the problem. I thought the tetras liked to school, so I don't understand why it would chase its 'friend'.

Are they all just jittery b/c of the new tank? Will they settle down? What can I do to stabilize this situation? The store assured me they'd all get along. I'd rather not have to get another gourami....I was hoping to get a couple more cardinals and be done.

Also, what's the best and smallest algae eater that I can get for this small of a tank?

 

[FroggyFox]

Well...I'm afraid I can't reassure you TOO much...but all is not lost The first step is research...so kudos to you for asking questions! Lets start with the easy stuff first. The smallest and best algae eater for your tank IMO would be an Otocinclus (otto). They're tiny and cute...BUT I wouldn't ever add them to a tank that wasn't established...they need lots of food for their tummies so I'd personally wait a few months before adding one.

YES some fish are really crazy when they get added to a new tank...but generally after a few days or a week they'll get used to the new tank. The bad news for you is (well I guess its not that bad) is that yes...you're right about there being some issues with the 'social structure'. Generally tetras really like to be in a group of at least 5, they dont consider one other fish a "school". Gouramis kinda like to be by themselves or in a really quiet community tank...kinda like a betta...so the tetra bothering it is probably stressing him out. In a 10 Gallon tank...even though your fish are probably pretty small right now, there's no room to expand and even have one group of 5 tetras...because you're pretty heavily stocked as it is. When these fish start getting bigger there is not much space in a 10G for them to get away from each other.

You mentioned that you "cycled" the tank for a few days. Unfortunately this is a common misnomer...cycling a tank involves chemistry and the nitrogen cycle in water...beginning with ammonia or waste that is added to the water. Just leaving a tank setup with water for a few days isn't going to do much of anything.

As of right now, if you dont have them I'd suggest getting three test kits. One for ammonia, one for nitrite and one for nitrate. Your tank is going to start going through the nitrogen cycle that all tanks go through constantly...only because your tank is new...alll of the bacteria that are needed are not present in your tank. In an established tank...bacteria takes ammonia and transforms it into nitrite and then different bacteria turn nitrite into nitrate and then we remove nitrate from the water with water changes. In an established tank this happens so effeciently that you never have measurable ammonia or nitrites....only nitrates which are the end product. In your new tank...what will happen is that the ammonia will go up...and then the nitrite will go up and peak for awhile...before everything is functioning properly in your tank. The reason so many fish die in new tanks is because those high levels of ammonia and nitrites are deadly to your fish.

SO the way I see it right now your choices are A) Return all the fish and fishless cycle the tank. Then stock the tank after researching your fish again. B) Do research on cycling in general and do a fish-in cycle...which means a lot of extra water changes to keep those fish healthy and in the meantime decide what to do with your fish...whether you're going to keep the stock the same or trade some for others etc. C) there is a product called Bio-spira that you can either order online and have shipped to you, or that a fish store near you might carry. It is basically a refrigerated culture of those two bacterias that your tank needs. When you add this to a tank it is instantly cycled and you should see very low spikes of ammonia and nitrite (if any).

OK thats a lot to take in we're all here to help ya so keep researching and keep asking those questions!

 

[Tarah]

OK...now what?

This is following up on my 'reassure me' thread and the advice I received there. I removed the long-finned red minor tetras, and took them back to a local store....where she told me they can be quite agressive. (even though the other store said not) I actually caught one fin-nipping my gourami! I couldn't get my money back b/c I didn't buy them there, but she gave me instead two rummy-nosed tetras, which are built more like the cardinals. The gourami seems to have no problems with the cardinals.

Now, I realize it's still iffy on if they're going to be happy since I don't have real 'schools' of either tetra, and my water conditions are probably not the greatest.

BUT, I did do the testing recommended, and I currently have a little bit of nitrate, no nitrite, and a safe level of ammonia. Fish have been in the tank for over 24 hrs. The one thing that does look bad, though, is that my ph is too high. My water apparently is alkaline, although the strip said not dangerously so. So, is there any way to lower the ph without going and getting more additives? I live in the middle of nowhere, and it is seriously hard to go get supplies. Is there anything I can do? Will it level out? Is it b/c of all the messing around I had to do today?

Also, about the cycling. I did use some bio-zyme when I started the tank, and again on day 4. So it wasn't just "cycling" with water....I was told the biozyme would get the bacteria going.

I appreciate the advice and help!

 

[punkrockfish]

well lets see...first off i'd say if you got the strip test kits they aren't as reliable as the drop kits. also, when adding bacteria like with the bio-zyme im pretty sure you are supposed to only add it once at the begining, what did the instructions say? never used the bacteria in a bottle stuff, but i have heard that only bio-spira is proven to work, but let us know how your stuff does. do not mess with the ph! your fish will adjust, messing with your ph is more dangerous because then you have to keep tweeking it and ph changes are more likely to kill your fish than just leaving it alone for the fish to get used to. PH is the last thing you need to worry about, keep an eye on the water parameters and keep up the water changes and let us know if you got anymore questions. also, do you have exact numbers for your water, rather than just ranges of good, ok, and bad?

 

[FroggyFox]

Hi again I merged your two threads...its much easier for everyone to follow along and help you out if they're able to read about the entire problem in the same place. Most people click the "new posts" button up top to see ALL of the new posts on all of the active threads when they come in...so no need to split up a topic.

Sounds like you made a good move taking them back...although cardinals and other tetras are not usually good fish to cycle a tank with. Did you do any reading about cycling?

Sounds like you're in the beginning of that cycle...your ammonia will keep going up, then it will go down as the nitrite starts coming up. While doing a lot of water changes you'll probably take a month at least probably more like two to get your cycle done in there.

I'd have to agree with punkrockfish, the test kits that are strips that you dip in the water are usually pretty hard to read results as well as more expensive per use. Also not to EVER worry about your pH, your fish will prefer a stable pH over one that is supposedly 'correct' for them.

I've never heard of Biozyme actually having an effect whatsoever on a tank's cycle. You'll know it lived up to its expectations when you dont get a high ammonia or nitrite peak, or you'll be another person to find out that it was just a gimmick to part you with your hard earned $$. Also...just putting the bacteria in there would be good...but without a source of ammonia the bacteria doesnt have anything to consume so it might just die off. Thats why directions on products like biospira you are supposed to add the product at the same time as you stock the tank fully. If you can't get ahold of biospira...you might try seeding the tank with some existing tank filter media or squeezings from a filter, if you have any friends with tanks or a store that will give you some.

 

[Tarah]

I do have numbers on the tests, but I"ll have to get the exact ones next time. I'll test again maybe tomorrow. I'm relieved about the pH, and I'll let you know how the biozyme does. The instructions said to put it in at startup, day 7, and day 14.

I do need to know what is the recommended water change....how often, how much? Also, how does one calclulate the needed amt of water conditioner when all they say is 1T per 10 gal! I figured like 1/16T for 2 qts....or something like that....is that right?

So far, everyone looks happier. One of the new tetras is still really pale, though. I suspect he was pale to begin with....b/c when she fished him out, she mentioned something about them being pale during the stress of the transfer. But the other one never looked that pale. I felt that since she was doing me a favor by taking the other ones back tho I didn't buy them there.....that I couldn't be choosy. I hope he gets happier.

Thanks a bunch! And let me know on the water changes!

 

[NoDeltaH2O]

Sorry to have found this thread so late, it looks like all of your questions have been answered, so all I have to add is this "Gouramis can be mean little buggers!"

Now onto some information that you can really use. I did a fish-in cycle with my first tank a few years back as I also didn't know about fishless cycling. I used bloodfin tetras, corydoras, and chinese algae eaters, I changed water A LOT to keep the ammonia and nittires down to non-lethal levels, and all the fish survived well and some even are still alive today years later. It can be done.

 

[punkrockfish]

too much water conditioner isnt gonna hurt the fish, so if you arent sure on your calculations then you can always add a little more to be safe. in a cycling tank you should do like a 20-25% water change every day or every other day depending on your readings. once the tank is cycled then you can just do weekly 20-25% water changes.

 

[Tarah]

Thanks...I hope they survive. This morning the gourami is still doing some chasing. I probably should have not gotten the rummy nosed tetras, and maybe gotten another small gourami instead. Oh well, live and learn. I will not have a chance to do any more changing for at least a week, so I'll just have to let this play out and do my best to keep them alive.

 

[NoDeltaH2O]

...I probably should have not gotten the rummy nosed tetras, and maybe gotten another small gourami instead. Oh well, live and learn...

well i woul really not suggest tou put smaller gouramis in there now as the current one has established his territory. I had a gourami that killed 3 smaller gouramis in one week's time after introducing him (the larger one) to the tank.

 

[Kuroshio]

Tarah, I would follow both froggy and punk's suggestions. If you don't have time to change the water for a week or so, then maybe taking the fish back now and re-initiating this when you do have the time?? Water changes on a 10G don't take but a few minutes and at this stage is vital to the survival of the fish. After all is settles, 10% water changes weekly and 25-30% monthly will be all that is necessary, depending on your bio-load of course (over stocked will require more changes). As for the conditioner, if you add the conditioner to the water before adding to the tank, then break the tsp down (some say up to the first thread of the cap, etc.) or if you add unconditioned water to the tank, then put the whole tsp. in and treat the whole tank. I agree with the pH, don't alter it, too hard to keep stable if you are adding additives.

10 gallons is such a small amount of water that even a small amount of waste can cause a big problem really fast. You could find yourself doing a couple 100% water changes if it gets out of hand; keep an eye on your parameters in this crucial time. Good luck with the new tank, -tina

 

[Tarah]

No, no.....I can do water changes. I meant that I can't do any more fish exchanges for a few days! I live 45 minutes from the nearest pet store and an hr from a nicer one. I just can't be doing 2 hr round trips every couple days to keep trying different fish.

Today, all my levels were still fine. A little bit of nitrate, no nitrite, and little to no ammonia. So either the biozyme is doing great, or my fish aren't pooping? I'll check again tomorrow.

The gourami is still chasing those two tetras, one of which still has no color. I'm going to take them back if they can make it to Monday....I have to go in to the dr. anyhow. Now I'm thinking of just getting another gourami and a couple more cardinals since he seems to leave the cardinals alone. I have yet to catch him chasing them.

Now about the another gourami.....if it's smaller, he may kill it? What if it's the same size or bigger? And where exactly IS his territory? He chases them out of whatever corner he happens to be in. Does he think it's the whole tank, or what?

I really like the gourami the best, even though he's being so agressive. If I have to, I'll go with only gourami. But, it'd be nice to keep the cardinals too. What I'd really like to know is why the pet place told me all these fish would get along!!? I can't possibly be the only person who's had trouble mixing gouramis with tetras.

I'm glad I have a place to vent my tank's social issues. Dh thinks I need a fish counselor.

 

[ozziegt]

Hmm....I have a honey sunset dwarf gourami with some neons in my tank and they have been getting a long great. Never seen any agression from anyone. But maybe my gourami has a better temperment? I don't know what's going on with your tank but I just wanted to share my experience.

 

[Lotus]

I wouldn't get another gourami for that tank. They don't tend to like eachother too much, and may end up killing eachother A gourami with tetras should be OK, and it may just be that they're establishing boundaries.

I would advise that you don't get any more fish in there until the ammonia and nitrites are both at zero. Even if you decide to take the tetras back, you can just keep the gourami in there while the tank finishes cycling.

 

[Tarah]

Thanks....I may be imagining it, but it seems that they are all a bit more settled down today. I haven't seen the gourami chasing at all yet today, and the one tetra is actually getting a touch of color. Maybe the boundaries are established now, and they will be more peaceful! Noone was missing any new pieces of fin this morning.

My ammonia levels were slightly higher today, but still in the safe zone. I'll probably do a water change tonight or tomorrow. If that one tetra keeps looking better, I may just leave them all in there and then wait until this weekend and decide whether to exchange them for more cardinals. If this gourami will behave, I'd be glad to just have him and no more gouramis. I think a school of cardinals and a gourami would be a nice tank.

I'm still wondering about an algae eater.....if it's necessary, and which is best. Someone told me an otto....but I hear that they get bigger too like the plecos, is that right? What about a cory catfish....do they grow? I've noticed the gourami doing some bottom feeding and 'grooming' around the decorations....would a catfish encroach on that? Do I really need an algae eater?

 

[Lotus]

It sounds like a good plan with the gouraim/tetras.

I don't think an algae eater is really necessary in most tanks if you keep up with maintenance and don't overfeed.

Otos only get to about 1.5", so it should be OK in your tank. However, don't get one until your tank is fully cycled, as they are sensitive to ammonia and nitrites. Cories are nice, but shouldn't be kept alone; you need at least three. Another option is to get some shrimp, either ghost shrimp or another kind, again, don't get them until there is no ammonia or nitrites as they're very sensitive.

 

[Tarah]

A shrimp? That's something I hadn't thought of. Are they docile....would that bother my gourami? I definitely won't get any algae eater for awhile yet.

Does anyone know about sexing rummy-nosed tetras? I'm beginning to wonder if I just have a female. Aren't females usually not as brightly colored as the males? It looks much happier today, but the nose is still just barely pink and the tail is lightly spotted while the other one is blood red and a nice black/white contrast on the tail. Could I have a male and female?

 

[Grymatta]

biospira

A side note about BioSpira...its expensive!

I brought the smallest pouch, which treats up to 30 gallons for about $15. Its also hard to find..I live in NYC and it took me 2 days of research to find one that stocked it. Most petstores do not carry it since it requires refrigeration.

However, I used it and it seems to be working well. Just tested my new tank and the amonia read 0.25 ppm, which is fine I think?
So..if you need to cycle your tank quick, I would recommend it.