Can't get cycle started no matter what I do...

[CynJ]

I have finally reached my wits end....I don't know what do to. No matter what advice I follow I absolutely can't get a cycle to start in my tank. My water is crystal clear. All the fish get along.

I tried getting Marineland BioSpira - worked for a couple days then the ammonia spiked to 2.0 - and had to do a water change.

I have tried every piece of advice from several forums - and from the head guy at my LFS -nothing works.

I keep having to do major water changes. My pH is perfect - right at 6.8-7.0 (I have to treat to keep it up - my tap water is 6.0 and lower)

I have the Doc Wellfish test kits for Ammonia, pH, Nitrate, and Nitrites. I have NEVER seen the Nitrate or Nitrite be anything but 0.

I have tried using BioSpria, StressZyme, and Cycle - nothing helps.

What can I do?

On a side note question (I have tried calling and emailing the company to no avail) - I am using Ammo-Carb from API in my filter - will that give me a false positive on the ammonia?

The guy at my LFS suggested that I might need a different filter- I got this tank as a kit from Petsmart. I haven't gotten a new filter as this one is brand new (Christmas)

Any suggestions would be great!

CynJ

Tank Specs & Inhabitants

20gal tank (Top Fin 20 Filter, heated to 79-80 degrees, 1 air stone in far corner)

(2) 1.5 inch False Julii Cats
(1) 1.5 inch Cory Cat:
(1) Blue Snail
(2) 2 inch Paradise Gouramis
(1) 1 inch Paradise Gouramis
(2) 2.5 inch Bala Sharks

 

[echoofformless]

No need to use ammo-carb in a cycled tank.

This might sound ridiculous, but do you think maybe your tank is cycled? I can't see that amount of fish living in a 20g tank without showing serious signs of stress and illness unless the tank is cycled. And if your readings are 0 on the nitrite and ammonia..well...it's cycled.

 

[CynJ]

I don't think it's cycled - I have to do daily water changes to keep the ammonia down.

And the fish appear healthy and happy - eating well - no bizzare behavior.

 

[CAPSLOCK]

Ammo-Carb can give false positives, because it works by changing the ammonia into something less/not toxic (not sure which). Some test kits still pick up on the resulting stuff.

You won't see nitrite unless the ammonia is being turned into nitrite... maybe the ammo-carb is changing the ammonia before the bacteria can get to it? And you won't see nitrate unless you have nitrite that is being changed into it. You can try taking the ammo-carb out and seeing if the ammonia spikes more than it has been. Try just water changes for a while (since you're doing them already anyways). You might find that the ammo-carb was taking out/changing the ammonia and preventing the tank from cycling... if so, you should start seeing nitrite readings too/instead.

 

[radamsk1]

Firstly, what product are you using to dechlorinate the tap water? Products like AmQuel dechlorinate tap water, as well as neutralize other aquarium waste products such as ammonia and nitrate. Disclaimers on these types of water conditioners include a false positive for ammonia tests using Nessler reagents. As far as I know, Doc Wellfish/API makes two types of ammonia testkits, one being a Nessler reagent (freshwater) and the other being a salicylate reagent (freshwater/saltwater). When using conditioners like AmQuel or other dechlorination products (except Stress Coat and some others), they react with Nessler reagent in the product yielding false results of ammonia. Needless to say, products like AmmoChip or AmmoCarb may also yield these results.

Therefore, it's safe to say you technically have no ammonia levels, put have been yielded false results due to conditioning/chemical products. And if you use a product like Amquel to dechlorinate the water, you are actually rising the false reading each time you are supposedly changing the water to reduce the "supposed" ammonia level.

 

[CynJ]

I'm using a combo of API Stress Coat and Proper pH 7.0 to treat the water and boost the pH (its wicked low out of the tap -like 6.0)

And my test kit is the "delux" verison that does both fresh and salt water.

Some folks on another forum think I am starving out the bactiera with the Ammo-Carb.

I just bought some plain charcoal to put in the current filter - will get rid of the Ammo-Carb contents but reuse the same frame/floss. And just keep doing a ton of water changes. See if that kicks in it.

My other alternative is to buy and start up another tank -and do a fishless cycle. I would like to avoid having to do that if at all possible.

 

[Orion]

I would lay off any additives that will bind or otherwise remove ammonia from your tank. Some of these products do not remove the ammonia, but rather they change it into a form that not only doesn't read correctly on test kits, but can not be easily used by the bacteria.

So keep up the water changes and testing. You say your fish are in good shape, so that's a big plus. Don't do any major cleaning or changing out the filter floss.

 

[CynJ]

Ok so here's what I've done since yesterday.

Last night 8pm:

I took the filter cartridge and dumped out all the Ammon-Carb (making sure to get all the bits) and replaced it with plain activated charcoal (rinsed w/tap water prior to putting in cartridge)

Took readings: pH=7.0, Ammonia=2.0, Nitrate=0, Nitrite=0

Did a 7gallon water change. Used only API Tap Water Conditioner to remove the chlorine and a pinch of baking soda to boost the pH

This morning 9:30am:

Took readings: pH=7.0, Ammonia=betweeen 2-4ppm on the color chart, Nitrate=0, Nitrite=0

Did an 11.5 gallon water change. Used only API Tap Water Conditioner to remove the chlorine and a pinch of baking soda to boost the pH.

Took new ammonia reading after water change: .5ppm

I should note that I use my gravel vac to siphon off the water - and my cory cats are good about keeping most of the food bits cleaned up. I don't disturb most of the gravel but I do siphon up the gravel where I drop the sinking pellets and where the cory cats hang out (lots of poo).

Any recommendations to change anything I am doing?

 

[CAPSLOCK]

That sounds about right to me (the ammonia rising at first then dropping after a water change). You should be partially cycled, so the ammonia should stop rising fairly quickly. I'd leave the ammon-carb out, and keep up vacuuming how you are (only actually vacuuming the really dirty part, leave the rest of the gravel as is) for now.

 

[CynJ]

Well - I just got home and ran my water tests

Results for 5:15pm -

pH= 6.8-7
Nitrite=0
Ammonia=.25-.5
Nitrate= 0

So its cool that the ammonia is down a little from this morning. I am not doing a water change at this moment. But will retest around 9:30pm and see how its faring....

 

[FroggyFox]

Well dont forget it could be that your ammonia level before was a false positive...I wouldn't get too excited until you start seeing some nitrates or nitrites.

Do you have any friends who have tanks or a cool local store that you could get some filter squeezings off of to seed your tank?

 

[catfishbum]

omg does this ever sound like the trouble i am having with my tank. i have the exact same thing with my 20 gal. all my fish have died but 3. i cannot get my ammonia to go down ever. i got it below 1ppm and now it is above 1 ppm. only ive basically changed all my water in an effort to save my last 3 fish and hope my tank recycles... now im just trying to leave the tank alone and do about 20% water changes every other day....

 

[CynJ]

Here are my notes from the last two days - any thoughts would be appreciated!

28-Feb
9:30pm
pH 6.4-6.6
Nitrite 0
Ammonia .5 - 1
Nitrate 0
Action: Did an 8 gallon water change. Used only API Tap Water Conditioner to remove the chlorine and a pinch of baking soda to boost the pH.


28-Feb
11:30pm
pH 6.4
Nitrite 0
Ammonia .25-.5
Nitrate 0
Action: added a little baking soda to boost pH

1-Mar
8:45am
pH 6.4-6.6
Nitrite 0
Ammonia .5-1
Nitrate 0
Action: Did an 8 gallon water change. Used only API Tap Water Conditioner to remove the chlorine and a pinch of baking soda to boost the pH.
Notes: 1 Julii catfish died

1-Mar
11:00pm
pH 7.0
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 1.0
Nitrate 0
Action: Did an 10 gallon water change. Used only API Tap Water Conditioner to remove the chlorine and a pinch of baking soda to boost the pH. Also added 2 tablespoons aquarium salt as a tonic (as a fish died)

1-Mar
11:45pm
pH 7.0
Nitrite 0
Ammonia .25-.5
Nitrate 0
Action: No action
Notes: Took new ammonia reading after water change

2-Mar
8:15am
pH 7.0
Nitrite 0
Ammonia .5
Nitrate 0
Action: no action -will retest at 12noon

 

[FroggyFox]

What day of the 'cycle' is this? How long has it been set up?