Cardinal problem

[playaslk]

Hey there, I was wondering if you'd be able to help me with something. I have had FW tanks for a long time but have not had any real luck with setting up a school of either neons or cardinals. My current "failure" is a discus planted tank. It is a 46 gallon bowfront tank with 6 discus and 3 clown loaches. The water conditions are NO3 is 20ppm, NO2 is 0, hardness is 120, alkalinity is close to 0 and ph of 6.4ish. temp is 85F. The discus are doing fine and i do daily water changes of 5-10 gallons using RO water mixed with 1/2 gallon of regular non-RO water (for the plants). Discus show no signs of stress and live normally. i brought home 11 cardinals about a week ago which i bought at a LFS. they all seemed fairly ok even though alot of them had skinny stomachs (due to lack of food i'd guess). I first placed them in a quarantine tank, loosing about 4 in a few days. After 5 days, and the rest of the cardinals looking ok, i moved them to my discus tank hoping for some survival. few days later, i am looking at 3 fish left (which do eat) but are covered in ich. none of the other fish show any kind of ich or other diseases. The temp is high (for discus) and i was thinking ICH wouldnt live but these cardinals are covered. I am at a loss here. plz help if you can see what i am doing wrong.
Thanks,
DK
(ps, id even go to neons if that meant they would live better, but i read somewhere that cardinals take the high temp better)

 

[Lotus]

I would say that you should have kept them in the quarantine tank for longer. Also, what is the pH of the water the cardinals were in at the store and the pH of the Q-tank. Cardinals really need careful acclimation to different pH and tank environments, otherwise they often get ich very fast. I would say a nitrate reading of 20ppm is too high for a discus tank. Do you have nitrates in your tapwater?

 

[playaslk]

i do, and the tank is planted. I do water changes constantly, doing 4-8 gallons daily (in a 46 gallon tank) I have a CO2 DIY system goin, so ph stays around 6.6-6.8 after the RO comes out at 7.

 

[dss2004]

I would suggest just using straight ro water to get rid of the nitrates. How long have you had the discus? I believe after extended periods of time being exposed to nitrates the discus will begin to pit, which is often irreversible.

I agree with Lotus on the q-tank. You should have probably left them in for longer. Most cardinals are wild-caught as they are difficult to breed. If you do get them again I would definitely check the stores ph. I would also try and get the cardinals that are in now out as fast as possible. The fact that the ich is living at 85 degrees is not a good thing. Some well-known aquarist feel that ich is beginning to morph into strains that are able to handle higher temps. Some cases have had ich live in 90+ but I doubt this is in the average aquarium. Anyway I wouldn't keep the sick fish with the Discus if you don't have too.

Oh if you are worried about water hardness and plant trace elements being lost with 100% RO water then you might look into a RO water additive that increases the salinity of the water but with discus you probably wouldn't need much. You could also add trace elements via the water column for the plants.

Anyway good luck and keep us posted on how everything turns out.

 

[playaslk]

actually, i just started adding the regular tap water to the RO water the other day. Before that i was using straight RO with RO Vital (product from Mark Weiss). It said use 1/2 tsp for 5 gallons, but for some reason it wasnt dissolving in my water so some of it was left in the bucket after i would pour the water in. I read some forums on Ro and found that alot of people seem to add tap to RO even 1/2 to 1/2 mix... I figured since i was using so little (half gallon to every 4 of RO water, it wasnt going to hurt things. I can easily, and will, go back to using straight RO with the RO Vital product.

 

[Lotus]

What is the nitrate content of your tapwater?

 

[dss2004]

Yeah I just worry about the nitrates and the discus. With the amounts of small water changes you perform it seems werid that you still have 20 ppm of nitrates with live plants and co2 going into the tank. Usually well planted tanks will keep the nitrates down for a couple of weeks even without water changes. Have you checked the nitrate levels out of the tap?

Also how clean is your aquarium? I only ask because decaying leaves and clogged filters can really make the nitrates levels rise in an aquarium.

i would continue to perform the water changes and check the parameters of the water you are putting into the aquarium to make sure nothing is really out of whack.

 

[playaslk]

actually after remeasuring, both measurements come out to about 10 ppm. It is entirely possible that it stays that way because of food, i feed them 4-5 times daily. I dont feed alot and the clown loaches are cleaning machines. What doesnt make it to the ground and is stuck on plants, the discus finish up so i dont really have alot (or any) of food layin around and rotting. There are no dead plants in there, as i keep that stuff pretty much clean. That tank is my baby and if anythng, i play around too much with it. Also the nitrate reading i am getting, is off of those dip tabs yo uget in a 25 per bottle thing. i dont know how accurate the nitrate measurement is because its not as clear white as the nitrite tab. It seems dirty and isnt really pink but isnt clean white either

 

[dss2004]

Yeah but with many feedings the fish are producing lots of ammonia which through the cycle becomes nitrates. The problem is that young discus need a heavy diet to grow to their full potential. I believe they eat lots of protein and tend to be very messy. Are you vaccuming the gravel when you change the water?

Many people keep bare bottom tanks with young discus for this reason. I wouldn't feel right telling you to slow feeding. Maybe (if the water is exactly the same) you could try larger changes until everything settles down. I would definitely make sure the water going in matches the water coming out (minus the nitrates of course) or you could run the risk of stressing your discus. And with ich in the water that would be a bad thing.

 

[playaslk]

vacumming the gravel is somewhat of a problem becaues of the plants. I am unable to do so almost at all. There are a few patches of gravel which i get to (where i have no plants yet) but for the most part the gravel sits there uncleaned. I know that this isnt the best way of doing business so to speak but i set up the tank and added the discus. They seem to be doing fine and are very spry, eating all the time (as much as i feed them). I really dont know how to clean the gravel and if i had to do it again, i would plant the plants in pots and keep the bottom clean. After having invested in flourite and going through the pains of cleaning it (no small task), the tank finally settled down and the discus are doing ok. (after going through hex thanks to a newcomer discus which i very nicely didnt quarantine (yes i have learned my lesson) and no fish died including the newcomer. I invested into an RO system and am doin frequent changes. The filter is a hang-on-the-side filter, and also a double-bio filter hanging inside the tank. The light is a Jebo 110 total watt fixture and i do not run any air bubblers other then the biofilter. The DIY tube is fed into the bottom of a powerhead which sprays tiny bubbles all over the place. I had to mess around with the amount of yeast i placed into the bottle since too much CO2 seemed to freak the fish out. After having struck a balance for the discus (and their colors returning) i did the cardinal experiment, which didnt really work too well.

 

[dss2004]

Yeah vacuming a planted tank can be a real pain in the a@#. I really don't vacum either as my tank has almost now free space on the bottom, covered with plants. I just hover the siphon over the substrate and pic up any excess debris.

I am glad to hear the discus are doing well. I haven't tried my hand with them but I have done extensive reading because someday I will venture into the discus world but I just don't have the time or money to do it right.

I would just keep doing the water changes and try and lower the nitrates. I know they are healthy now but things can turn bad fast. With all the time and effort you have put in I know everything will work out. Sometimes things just go astray for whatever reason.

Cardinals and neons are notorious for bad beginnings. People often say that after a few weeks the ones that are left stay around for awhile. I personally feel out of favor with the little guys. I also had a bad expierence with neons killing off an entire tank. It was in the beginning of my fishkeeping and taught me a great lesson on q-tanks.

I hope all works well for you. Keep us updated!!