Cool New Stocking program for Beginners, Need Input

[MOA]

Hello,

Call me MOA (math-only aquarium). I have been working on a pet project for some time and have finally been able to dedicate a website to it:

HMF Home (MOA's: How Many Fish)

This project is a new set of guidelines to replace the inaccurate inch-per gallon rule. The guidelines (for ease of use) have been incorporated into a spreadsheet format called FishsheetA6 (available on second page of website). The reason I did not simply attach it to this thread is that it is fairly large.

Anyhow, after you guys get finished looking it over, I would appreciate your comments and suggestions. I find that asking actual aquarists rather than using referrence works alone presents a more accurate picture for me of what really happens in freshwater aquariums. before replying, however, I would appreciate it if you kept in mind that the spreadsheet is designed for relatively new aquarists and was not intended to handle situations like breeding or the keeping of very delicate species.

Lastly, before you ignore this idea as being hopelessly impersonnal, bear in mind that this is no ordinary spreadsheet. It has about 240 types of fish and "knows" their temperature needs, mimimum tank sizes, biomass (unlike the inch-per-gallon rule), and even suggests compatible fish. Also, the spreadsheet considers aerobic filtration, size comparisons, remaining wastes, and even individual territory/space requirements before it makes a prediction. Granted, it is not perfect and that is why I am posting here: the more suggestions, the more accurate it will become.

Cheers,
MOA

 

[MOA]

Hello,

I made another spreadsheet , but this one isn't for stocking the aquarium. Instead, it is designed to help new fish breeders select and breed stocks. Below are links to a spreadsheet that calculates a dihybrid punnett square and the various genotypes and phenotypes that could arise.

Genotype: The genetic signature of an animal that will influence future generations

Phenotype: The appearance of an animal with regard to genetic traits (some animals will carry a trait but not show it and they will thus look as if they had the same traits as another animal).

Let's look at an example: let's say you want to combine a strain of fish with long tail fins with a strain that has red bodies. First you have to determine the genotype of the parental stock. The genotype describes the traits an animal carries and their dominance. For our purposes, let's say that the genotypes of our fish are as follows:

Father: Long Tail Recessive (the long tail doesn't normally occur in the wild type) with normal body color dominant (the fish comes from a long line of fish with normal body colors). This, in genetic alleles that the spreadsheet uses would be ttDD, where the tt represents a recessive tail structure and DD represents a dominant body type.

Mother: Normal Tail Dominant with red body color recessive. The genetic alleles for the spreadsheet would be TTdd, where TT represents a dominant tail structure and dd represents a recessive body color (red).

When plugged into the spreadsheet, the resulting offspring would have these traits:

Dihybrid Punnett Square

Directions: Fill out the genetic information for the parents
using "to" for dominant alleles and "ot" for recessive alleles.
The remainder of the spreadsheet will fill itself out.

First Alleles Second Alleles
Father ot ot to to
Mother to to ot ot Results: Genotype
Geno. Pheno. otdo otdo otdo otdo
Dom Dom (TTDD) 20 1 tood TtDd TtDd TtDd TtDd
Dom Het (TTDd) 23 1 tood TtDd TtDd TtDd TtDd
Dom Rec (TTdd) 26 2 tood TtDd TtDd TtDd TtDd
Het Dom (TtDD) 21 1 tood TtDd TtDd TtDd TtDd
Het Het (TtDd) 24 1
Het Rec (Ttdd) 27 2 otdo otdo otdo otdo
Rec Dom (ttDD) 22 3 tood 24 24 24 24
Rec Het (ttDd) 25 3 tood 24 24 24 24
Rec Rec (ttdd) 28 4 tood 24 24 24 24
tood 24 24 24 24

Results: Phenotype
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1


As you can see, all of the offspring would not only look the same (phenotype 1), but also be genetically identical (genotype 24), and have the same alleles (TtDd). This means that the offspring will look like the wild type rather than either of the parents.

If the offspring were to be bred with each other, then their children would be quite diffrent (note that the alleles in the Father and Mother cells were changed to accommodate their new genes (type TtDd):

Dihybrid Punnett Square

Directions: Fill out the genetic information for the parents
using "to" for dominant alleles and "ot" for recessive alleles.
The remainder of the spreadsheet will fill itself out.

First Alleles Second Alleles
Father to ot to ot
Mother to ot to ot Results: Genotype
Geno. Pheno. todo tood otdo otod
Dom Dom (TTDD) 20 1 todo TTDD TTDd TtDD TtDd
Dom Het (TTDd) 23 1 tood TTDd TTdd TtDd Ttdd
Dom Rec (TTdd) 26 2 otdo TtDD TtDd ttDD ttDd
Het Dom (TtDD) 21 1 otod TtDd Ttdd ttDd ttdd
Het Het (TtDd) 24 1
Het Rec (Ttdd) 27 2 todo tood otdo otod
Rec Dom (ttDD) 22 3 todo 20 23 21 24
Rec Het (ttDd) 25 3 tood 23 26 24 27
Rec Rec (ttdd) 28 4 otdo 21 24 22 25
otod 24 27 25 28

Results: Phenotype
1 1 1 1
1 2 1 2
1 1 3 3
1 2 3 4


Since the offspring of the first generation carried the reccessive genes (both t and d) even though they did not look like they did, some of their offspring will begin to show those traits that did not show up at first. The new batch of offspring will mostly look like the wild type (9/16 or 56.25% will have phenotype 1). No less, some of the offspring will show long tails and red bodies. Of the offspring, 3/16 (or 18.75%) will have long tails (phenotype 3, genotype 22 or 25) and the same percentage will have red bodies (phenotype 2, genotype 26 or 27). Only 1/16 (6.25%) will show both long tails and red bodies (phenotype 4, genotype 28, ttdd).

Thus, only the second generation will show the traits that aquarist was looking for. If these fish that show both traits are bred from then on, then all of the offspring should show those traits as well:

Dihybrid Punnett Square

Directions: Fill out the genetic information for the parents
using "to" for dominant alleles and "ot" for recessive alleles.
The remainder of the spreadsheet will fill itself out.

First Alleles Second Alleles
Father ot ot ot ot
Mother ot ot ot ot Results: Genotype
Geno. Pheno. otod otod otod otod
Dom Dom (TTDD) 20 1 otod ttdd ttdd ttdd ttdd
Dom Het (TTDd) 23 1 otod ttdd ttdd ttdd ttdd
Dom Rec (TTdd) 26 2 otod ttdd ttdd ttdd ttdd
Het Dom (TtDD) 21 1 otod ttdd ttdd ttdd ttdd
Het Het (TtDd) 24 1
Het Rec (Ttdd) 27 2 otod otod otod otod
Rec Dom (ttDD) 22 3 otod 28 28 28 28
Rec Het (ttDd) 25 3 otod 28 28 28 28
Rec Rec (ttdd) 28 4 otod 28 28 28 28
otod 28 28 28 28

Results: Phenotype
4 4 4 4
4 4 4 4
4 4 4 4
4 4 4 4


Anyhow, play around with it and tell me what you think!

MOA

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ym0tvzjkvvz/dihybridpunnettsquare.xlsx

http://www.mediafire.com/file/natanitllrn/dihybridpunnettsquarexls.xls

Check Out the Freshwater Stocking Guide: Freshwater Stocking Guide: A Reference for Beginners

MOA's: How Many Fish: HMF Home (MOA's: How Many Fish)

 

[NEWfishBIGpond]

Nice tool, very impressive. I wish I had this prior to initially setting up my tank. While I know it is only a template, it seems to be pretty darn accurate. It would have saved me tons of time/reading when I was scrambling to come up w/ a best "guesstimate". Again very cool. I could possibly see some folks have problems w/ the clarity of the questions on entering data for cleaning schedule/feeding schedule. While I think I understood them correctly, if the questions are misunderstood then it would likely throw off the accuracy of the results based on the formula used. Maybe throw an example in the spread sheet they can look at to better understand the question. Anyhow, like I said I loved it and I found it highly useful! Thanks for the hard work.

 

[littletankbigworld]

Wow...that is very complex...But interesting, none the less.

 

[mrsgrantis]

WOW! way over my head! but it says I have some more room, LOL.

 

[homebunnyj]

I think it's great. But to make it palatable for beginners -- i.e., "not scary" -- I think you need to pretty it up a bit. Choose a color, remove the borders from most of the cells, choose a good display font and don't forget about white space, and add simple explanations to the top of each section. In the conversion areas, hide the numbers in the drop-down boxes so that they just display "inches", "liters", "Fahrenheit", etc. Some of the results may need to be explained in simpler terms as well.

You seem to have the scientific end of things nailed. I love it. Now, though, if you don't also have just as impressive talents in the area of graphic design, it may be time to enlist the assistance of someone who does in order to make this wonderful tool less intimidating to those who need it most. I look forward to your next update.

 

[epond83]

Seems pretty useful but a few questions,

For schooling fish you have a min number of 6 to be selected i understand that why you have this but with some set ups you can keep less such 3 or 4 if all fish are low agressive, well planted and all fish are of simular size. (i know this is for begginers but maybe a way to use a lower number?)

Also I'm wonderig what you mean by box filter? you cover filters on you web page well but they don't refelect what is listed on the spreedsheet

 

[stoddern]

I won't begin to act like I can keep up with this math and calculations but I must say I found it easy to use and a very helpful tool in maintaining my tank thank you very much and keep up the good work

 

[MOA]

NEWfishBIGpond,

Thanks. BTW, there is an example on the website (example one), but I know it is kinda hard to locate if you are not looking for it (I might need to rename that page lol).


littletankbigworld,

Yes, some of my earlier spreadsheets were too simple and people were mad that they didn't cover enough ground (ironically, people still accuse the program of not covering enough *PEACE!*). Anyhow, I find it very difficult to balance out the complexities of fishkeeping and the simplicity most "beginners" (or just ordinary folks) prefer.


mrsgrantis,

Lol


homebunnyj,

Yeah, graphic design isn't my strong suite. If anyone wants to "clean it," then please, feel freee to alter it. As to the conversion chart, I left the numbers in because it is easier to check the formulas that way, but I admit it is somewhat distracting (very distracting).


epond83,

Box Filter: Any internal filter that is near the bottom of the tank. Generally includes sponge filters, mechanical fast filters, and bubble filters (excluding UGF's).

If you do not like the number settings (most advanced users don't), you can always enter the fish in the "Manual Input" fields. That way, you can select your own numbers and account for behavior patterns. Also, you mentioned plants and decor: their is a spreadsheet in the links to additional aquarium tools that deals with how much structure should be in a given tank (rough estimate).


Hope this helps. If I didn't clear up your questions, please say so (I have been working on reading minds, but no success yet, lol).

MOA

P.S. Anyone use the breeding spreadsheet(s)?

 

[MOA]

stoddern,

Thanks

 

[MOA]

Suggestions welcome

 

[KyleBradley]

My brain hurts, and that's not fair!!

 

[sheamurai]

Do you mind if I post this in other fish forums?

 

[homebunnyj]

I'm working on 'friendly'-ing it up a bit... some cosmetic stuff to make it look less complicated. As soon as I'm done I'll PM you and send it so you can see what you think.

What about an option for how much substrate and ornamentation an aquarist has, as far as how it affects the actual gallons in the tank.

 

[MOA]

KyleBradley,

Sorry. This version, believe it or not, is actually a somewhat "friendlier" version than some of my earlier ones. Anywho, I still need to slim it down.


sheamurai,

No I do not mind at all if you post it elsewhere


homebunnyj,

Thanks a bunch! As to the substrate/ornamentation calculation, most of my data basically says that unless you literally have tons of decor/substrate that adding them is a wash. Yes, adding extra stuff does reduce the gallon capacity, but the added filtration potential and security for the fish usually outweigh the loss. That is why my spreadsheet appears to ignore that stuff. Anyhow, I will look at the forumlas a bit more closely

MOA

 

[MOA]

Hello,

I am thinking of making FishsheetA7 a multisheet application. This a good idea?

MOA

 

[sheamurai]

Oh, definitely. I've already copied the sheet over because I didn't want to erase the data entered for each tank, so I copied in onto another sheet - one for each tank I have. Easier to play with the numbers for each tank.
I've noticed on other forums that you aren't the only one creating a program for this, I've seen another link out there but I haven't yet compared them. Or is that you on another site?

 

[MOA]

sheamurai,

I am on some of the other sites as well. However, there is at least one other person who has actually created a web-based stocking application. You can find the link to his website on mine.

MOA

 

[MOA]

Hello,

I am going to change how tank size is calculated in FishsheetA7. Instead of all entries being manual, the users will be able to select from a list of standard tanks and the manual entries will become supplemental.

MOA