Cycle?

[Thyra]

A cycle is a cycle - right? It goes around. But almost everything referring to the cycle in these forums say once you have nitrates you’re there and you have “completed “ the cycle. If that was true it wouldn’t be a cycle. What I believe happens is then the nitrates breakdown into ammonia and the cycle continues. Maybe this only makes sense to me, but if you have too much nitrate, you will also get too much ammonia. Therefore the necessity for water changes.

Since I found this forum and also FishLore, I have spent hours reading back posts - sometimes things back as much as 8 years. I found the following statement in one of the stickys on this site. I have seen similar statements when I Googled fishless cycling.

“When fishless cycling, the major advantage is to add all your fish at once. By adding ammonia, you will build a very large bio and if you only add a few fish in at a time, the bio will die off because there is not enough 'food' for all the bacteria.”

 

[achase]

Not sure what your asking.....

It a continuous cycle of the good bacteria eating the ammonia produced by the fish.
It is never really complete but when we say "completed cycle" it just refers to the fact that you have now built up enough good bacteria to consume the ammonia so the ammonia doesn't hurt your fish. So what you said was right.

if you only add a few fish in at a time, the bio will die off because there is not enough 'food' for all the bacteria.”

You are supposed to add 3 - 4 fish once a week so that you don't shock your tank. The bacteria in the tank cannot consume the ammonia produced quickly enough. If you add fish slowly your good bacteria level will increase and you won't have to worry about the health of your fish. Bacteria will die off if you say remove all the fish this why people often add pure ammonia to maintain the cycle.

Does that make sense?

 

[Thyra]

I would assume that 5ppm is a "lot of ammonia" and apparently some people are getting it even higher to start with, therefore more nitrite will form, allowing more bacteria to feed and grow so in that case there would be a big enough bio load for more fish and if you didn't add enough fish to continue to feed these bacteria, they would just die. That would negate the whole reason for waiting for the tank to "cycle" fishlessly. That is the way I am starting to understand this.

 

[achase]

I think fish produce a pretty good amount of ammonia. It's true that if you don't have enough of a food source some of the bacteria would die but I think that once the bacteria are established it's really easy for them to create more of themselves when you add more fish again. Which is why you only add a few fish a week to give the bacteria a chance.

That would negate the whole reason for waiting for the tank to "cycle" fishlessly.

I don't really understand what your trying to ask here.

 

[aakaakaak]

Tyra, the fishless cycle would elevate your bacteria levels so you could add all the fish you want at one time. If you "only" add a few fish after a fishless cycle it doesn't kill the whole cycle. It only reduces the bio-load to the amount of fish producing ammonia. This would be good to note if you wanted to dump say....100 guppies into a 150 gallon tank, but not that big of a deal if you only intend to add a few fish at a time anyway.

This is how I understood it at least.

 

[Thyra]

I am not really asking any questions, I just wanted to see what others take on this was.

 

[Dylandrewsdad]

T-Not much to do in Yelm? LOL

No seriously, in regards to the sticky quote-I would not add all your fish at once as you need to have the bacteria colony keep up with the bio load.

Clear as mud now....right?

 

[phin]

What I believe happens is then the nitrates breakdown into ammonia and the cycle continues. Maybe this only makes sense to me, but if you have too much nitrate, you will also get too much ammonia. Therefore the necessity for water changes.

No, Nitrate does not break down into ammonia. Nitrate breaks down into Nitrogen eventually through anerobic respiration. This is why saltwater tanks typically have lots of live rock (the live rock provide the deep crevasses where anerobic bacteria can live and break down the nitrates.

However, in your freshwater tank you are unlikely to have many places for anerobic bacteria to live and convert nitrates to nitrogen gas (N2). In addition the breakdown from NO3 to N2 converts nitrate to nitrite (NO2-), nitric oxide (NO), nitrous oxide (N2O), and then to dinitrogen (N2). It is unlikely a freshwater tank will have the ability to complete this process.

Plants consume nitrates via their roots, however freshwater aquariums usually won't have the plant capacity to remove enough nitrates.

High nitrates (over 40ppm) contribute to high algae growth, cyanobacteria, and for sustained periods, nitrate poisoning in your fish. <---thats what water changes are for.

 

[bassbonediva]

It's called a "cycle" because it is referring to the bacterial life cycle going on in the tank. Ammonia is turned into nitrites, and nitrites are turned into nitrates. More ammonia is produced and the cycle continues (ammonia-to-nitrites-to-nitrates).

I appreciate that you're doing a lot of research, Thyra, but I think you might be overthinking this WAY too much. I don't mean any offense, I think you're just making it more complicated than it actually is. Just my two cents, though.

 

[aakaakaak]

Can we rename this forum section to the "How to Cycle Your Tank - Newbie Required Reading" section?

 

[Thyra]

phin, I concur - also did some more reading.

DD---I have plenty to do, but lack the energy required most of the time. I also have two grandsons in college - one 5th year biology major and working in a lab and I need to be able to speak intelligently to them. I can't let them get too far ahead of me! lol

 

[Thyra]

Go ahead and rename it, but this isn't really telling on how to cycle a tank. There are so many versions out there. One of the simplest I have found so far:

Cycling a Tank

I am tired of looking for pure ammonia and I did the first tank with fish and it worked fine - it is now 4 months. My second tank will be done the same way - carefully with a lot of testing. I AM NOT RECOMMENDING ANYTHING, I am just saying what I did. I initially thought at the rate things were going with the looking for ammonia and then supposedly having to wait so long with the fishless cycle that I might not live long enough to see any fish! lol

 

[bassbonediva]

One way to get through fish-in cycling with as little stress to your fish as possible and more quickly is to use a product called Tetra SafeStart. It's a little expensive, but I have yet to hear of anyone losing a fish while fish-in cycling with it. The tank usually cycles in about 7-10 days, as well.

 

[Dylandrewsdad]

Well if you are trying to cycle a 2nd tank, there is a very easy way that only requires some planning. Add your 2nd filter to your current established tank for 3-4 weeks. The bacteria colony will grow, get a small amount of fish in your new tank with dechlorinated water and add the filter....POOF instant cycle!

I have never done a fishless cycle, but I gather they are not too difficult as long as you have an ammonia source (pure ammonia or a piece of shrimp or something. I have started all my tanks but the first the way I described above. Like some of us, as a newbie, I did not know any better and bought some fish and threw em into the tank, of course I know now that was wrong!

 

[prsturm]

My two and a half dinars.

“When fishless cycling, the major advantage is to add all your fish at once. By adding ammonia, you will build a very large bio and if you only add a few fish in at a time, the bio will die off because there is not enough 'food' for all the bacteria.”

This is only roughly true, and way wrong on the details. The bacteria continue to divide mindlessly. Little food or a lot of food, the mitosis will continue. Bacteria don't count how much ammonia is around and then decide to only reproduce to that level. Bacteria production overshoots ammonia production, and vice versa. It is a see-saw. Of course, bacteria age and die as well, so it isn't like you just get some bacteria and they keep on living. They live and die and multiply and divide, the old bacteria get old and die, the young bacteria get big and strong, and then die... your initial bio-load has nothing to do with setting the bar for ammonia processing. There is always bacteria dying. They don't live that long. The point of adding only one or two fish at a time is to keep the new fish from overshooting current bacteria production. And then when the bacteria multiply and divide, they overshoot ammonia production.

A quick and dirty example:

15,000 bacterial cells divide---->30,000 cells.
Fish produce enough ammonia for 20,000 cells.
Bacteria cells divide---->40,000 cells.
Fish produce enough ammonia for 50,000 cells.
Bacteria divides---->80,000 cells.
Ammonia production drops to enough for 30,000 cells.
Bacteria divides---->160,000 cells.
Bacteria start to die off. Bacteria at 80,000 cells.
Ammonia production remains at 30,000 cells.
Bacteria start to die off. Bacteria at 40,000 cells.
Ammonia production increases to 50,000 cells worth.
Bacteria divides---->80,000 cells.

 

[aakaakaak]

ouch, my brain hurts now....

 

[bassbonediva]

A quick and dirty example:

15,000 bacterial cells divide---->30,000 cells.
Fish produce enough ammonia for 20,000 cells.
Bacteria cells divide---->40,000 cells.
Fish produce enough ammonia for 50,000 cells.
Bacteria divides---->80,000 cells.
Ammonia production drops to enough for 30,000 cells.
Bacteria divides---->160,000 cells.
Bacteria start to die off. Bacteria at 80,000 cells.
Ammonia production remains at 30,000 cells.
Bacteria start to die off. Bacteria at 40,000 cells.
Ammonia production increases to 50,000 cells worth.
Bacteria divides---->80,000 cells.

And this is why I'm an English teacher, NOT a math teacher! ROFL!

 

[Thyra]

I did respond, unfortunately I tried to ad a smiley face and the whole thing went somewhere into cyberspace. It may take me sometime to recuperate! - and I still don't know where those smiley faces went - they use to be right here so I could click on them! lol

 

[Thyra]

Just to clarify (maybe) #15 is not my quote. It is a quote from a Stickey on cycling I copied. I am not sure I follow the whole bacteria roster because I don’t see anyway of testing for the number of bacteria in a tank.. I do know that some types of bacteria don’t die - they hibernate until a food source is available. I don’t know if aquarium bacteria also have this ability. As near as I can tell it is not a bacteria we are cycling, it is the nitrogen cycle we are dealing with and I am just plain curious because when I read all the posts - and Google info - there are so many different opinions and I actually find it interesting trying to find the source. I suppose the thing that worries me the most is the possibility that there is ammonia out there that has surfactant in it and its not labeled and someone will use it. I had a bottle from Walgreens that did not include it on the label, but when I shook the bottle, it got sudsy. Somewhere I read if shouldn’t do that if it does not have surfactant - and I can’t find my source of that info to sure with you all. Thanks for putting up with me Paige - just trying to explain where I am coming from.

 

[phin]

Do you have an Ace hardware around? If so the Ace brand janatorial strenth ammonia is 10% ammonia and 90% water. Nothing else.