cycling...

[MdngtRain]

I was searching the forums for specifics on the cycling process. I have not done it in over a year, so please bear with me.
I had my water tested today and got:
0 ammonia
20ppm nitrates
high on the nitirites (can't remember, but the 2nd color in on the strip test kit, maybe 0.5-1.0?).

Am I mid-way through the cycle? I will be doing a change and re-testing, but I just want to check my memory.

Also, my pH is off-the-charts high, as is the hardness. I will be checking the parameters on my tap water when I go back later today. I am going to look into some more driftwood and some salt, but was wondering if the salt is somethign that messes with the shrimp? I know they can adjust to it over time. If my tap water is much higher for both, should I bother trying to lower either in any way? I can purchase some RO water at an LFS, but would prefer not to have to do that weekly if I can get away with it. (Also, a test kit is in my future, I know I need one).

Thanks!

 

[Thyra]

Why do you want to put salt in the tank? I don't believe it has anything to do with pH and the worse thing you can do is start chasing your pH anyway. Your fish will acclimate to it, but they can't deal with changes. My pH is "off the chart I suppose too and I am guessing it is about 8.2, but hasn't caused any problems.

 

[FishDad]

Yeah we need to know what "of the charts" is. Do you have well or city?

 

[Newman]

if it's off the charts that usually means we can't even measure it. what color is the pH test? if it is an API test is the pH purple or something?
as far as the hardness that can be measure up to a very high point so they should have given you a value for it. unless they used test strips instead of liquid test.
It's your LFS doing this for you isn't it?
i think i remember suggesting to go to them to test the water. wow they were less helpful than i had hoped
just sounds like you have hard water. bettas can adapt and most shrimp can too. but try to focus your future fish choice on hard water, high pH fish rather than softer stuff like tetras. livebearers would work for you.

as far as the nitrate issues goes, that just sounds like overfeeding and not enough tank maintenance. or can be a sign of overstocking too. up your maintenance and check back in a few weeks. if the nitrites remain, then you have an overstocking problem.
if its the new tank you recently got, there could just be old stuff in the filter chambers that's decomposing. that will run out eventually.

 

[FreshyFresh]

Mdng, IMO, you cannot rely on a LFS for your water parameter measurement needs. I realize it's another $20-30, but if you're even moderately into aquaria, you need a decent liquid test kit. Most of us use an API master test kit.

 

[MdngtRain]

I went to a different store that used the liquid kit and got actual numbers (the other place was way off, which is kinda what I had been thinking, as they used strips). My pH is actually only 7.8, and out of the tap it's 8.2. Amonia is at 0 and Nitrates are at 20ppm. The nitrites registered at 5.0, so I did a water change as soon as I got home, and plan to do it daily for a while (about 30%). I've got prime, so it's not killing anything being that high, but I know it's not meant to replace water changes (and I don't like relying on chemicals all that much). The second place did not measure the hardness (or at least she didn't write it down... but even if she did, I turned my back on the dog and the paper long enough for him to eat it. I don't remember the numbers other than what I stated above).

Thyra, the salt was to change the hardness of the water, not affect the pH... The driftwood would be the one to change the pH.

I cleaned out the filter chambers before I put anyone in, so I think the issue is over-feeding. I'm still only stocked at 1 betta and 10 shrimp. Actually, I have only seen 7 lately (the most I can count at any one time even when the tank is disturbed by a water change), so I may have lost 3 and they are adding to the spike.

As for the test kit, it's in the plans down the line. Things keep creeping into the budget and the extra cash just isn't there for that at this time. The LFS that's about 30 minutes away does the liquid test, so I will continue to use them for the time being (I drive by there almost daily anyway).

Nothing else is going into the tank any time soon, but I do love the neons, so I will think about starting to buy RO water at the lfs. I think I said it in another post somewhere, SFL water is some of the worst in the country. Each city/region is different in terms of quality and what they add to the water. Just this past week there was another "boil" advisory a few streets north of us... I try not to think of it in too much detail though, as we only ever filter the fridge water, but not what we use for cooking or washing dishes...

 

[Newman]

i wouldn't use salt. it wont lower your hardness at all, in fact it may raise it. you are adding salt ions into the water, raising the mineral content.
driftwood won't change the pH much if its that high and if the water is hard. if you go 50% distilled water from the store, you may have a decent environment for tetras. I'd also use dried leaves, but they may not work with your wife's intentions of a cute tank.

keep at those water changes. eventually your tank will finish cycling. it's just going through a phase. probably after initial substrate addition and disturbance.

 

[FreshyFresh]

Am I mid-way through the cycle? I will be doing a change and re-testing, but I just want to check my memory.

Also, my pH is off-the-charts high, as is the hardness.

How exactly are you cycling? The best thing I ever did was take the advice of this forum and cycle with used media, hard decor and fish in the tank. It's instant, I've done it several times now and never showed even a fraction of a PPM of ammonia or nitrite when doing it this way. Slowly nitrates would start to creep up between my weekly water changes. I do WWC's even if nitrates are low.

As far as your pH, I'm not sure I believe it with test strips. Even if it is ~7.8, I'd leave it, acclimate the fish you want and leave it alone.

 

[MdngtRain]

I tried to respond yesterday, but my computer froze and wiped my response.
I was attempting an instant cycle using olf hardscaping and media, but it apparently is not working. It's a first for it not to work. I have always done the "instant cycle" when upgrading tanks and have never had any issues with it, including adding to the bioload. I wonder if the calification on the back wall are screwing things up. I had cleaned all the media baskets thoroughly, so I know it's not anything in there. I have only been able to find 7 shrimp lately (even when I change the tank water) so I wonder if I accidentally burried 3 of them when I added more sand.

I'm not planning on messing much with the pH, but I do want to make sure I can keep it stable when I change the water. I don't recall pH being changed by off-gassing, but the lady at the store was saying that it can lower if you let it sit for 48 hours. It's been a long time since my last science class, can it lower a bit just through off-gassing? Wouldn't that eventually make all water neutral?

 

[Newman]

it can rise after offgassing. tap water may be slightly lower than your tank's water due to dissolved gasses like CO2. after sitting, those gasses escape and pH will rise slightly.

it can lower if you do not have much aeration in the tank, that way the fish makes more CO2 than can be off-gassed by the oxygen you are trying to dissolve via surface disturbance.

once you get your own test kit, you can test your pH whenever you want and your questions will be answered.

 

[Thyra]

Like I said, My pH is at least 8.2 and I have had no problem with my neons because of my water. As far as the shrimp - is your betta eating them??

 

[MdngtRain]

thanks. I will contemplate carefully trying that at a later date. (or at least looking into it). I really love the neons.
Would the betta be able to/inclined to eat larger ghost shrimp? Would he eay all of it in one night if he tried? I don't see any bodies around, and I am doing a water change daily (I would expect to at least see bodies floating if they were half-eaten). They are all at least an inch long, some bigger. They may have snuck into the filter baskets and are living there also.

 

[Thyra]

Sorry - I can't really answer your question from experience, but bettas are carnivorous and others say they eat their snails. I had my neons disappear recently partly because I wasn't paying attention - I downsized and put an angel in their tank. I am sure the angel ate them - I never noticed any bodies either. I had heard that neons are an angels favorite food, but had forgotten that little bit of info until I suddenly one evening noticed they were gone. A betta has a pretty big mouth for its size.

 

[MdngtRain]

sorry to hear about your neons. I had an experience close to that with my first ever fish tank (before I had done any research and just went with the pet store recommendations)... I bought a ghost knife after being told it was a community fish. lol! I was gulliable. He ate everyone else in the tank over 2 nights... I took him back after he gobbled everyone up. Good thing too, because they told me he'd be good ina 10g... :sigh:
I guess he could be eating them. The other 7 seem to be holding steady though. Just about to do another water change though, so I will know if more have disappeared...

 

[MdngtRain]

found 1 more shrimp, so they may all still be alive and kicking.

 

[BettaBabe]

I've had problems with my neons being attacked by my bettas. Only tried it once. It seemed more like a territorial thing than a hunger thing. They don't seem to like anything entering their swimming space, but ignore my bottom dwellers and Otto cats.

 

[Thyra]

I have never had a problem with my bettas attacking any of my other fish including my neons and I have found in a community tank they don't appear to be a bit territorial - they swim around the whole tank. I do believe they do keep the fry population under control.

 

[BettaBabe]

Thyra- I've heard you can acclimate bettas to their tank mates better by adding the other ones first, or at the same time as the bettas, especially if they are smaller/less dominant. I don't believe in the "evil betta", in fact my semi-community betta tank has been the most peaceful one I've had do far! I think maybe my mistake was trying to add neons to an already established tank.

 

[FreshyFresh]

The four female bettas in my 55g might bump and shove each other around at times, but I've never seen any ripped fins, etc. The only fish in with them that are smaller are the 4 zebra danios. They're too busy prowling around and watching what people are doing than pick on other fish. On my recent tank tear down and re-do, with new substrate, etc, when I got everyone back in the tank, it took them a matter of a few hours to look comfortable again.

 

[MdngtRain]

I got my parameters tested again and I'm down to zero on everything. I think the guy screwed up the test (he did it between helping other people buy fish. I havn't done the liquid test in a while, but I do remember some of it being a bit more regimented than he did). I need to get my own soon, but funds are really tight... Oh well.

The pH in my tap is 8.2, and the tank is 7.8 regularly, so that doesn't match the raising pH via off-gassing. The lady at the store had said it would drop with off-gassing vs. raise. There is very little surface aggitation, so I'm guessing the driftwood is changing the pH. I'm not so worried about it once the newer fish get acclimated, just waiting on the newer fish for now. I think that will all wait till after my mini-vacation and getting a test kit.