dang sump...

#1
i am currently trying to get a sump set up on my 10 gallon tank. yes, i know its a nano, but i though t i would get more responses in general salt because im proably the only person who wants a sump on a 10 gallon tank. i have a pump, and i have a pvc pipe siphoning water down. i cant seem to find a balance between overflowing my main tank, and overflowing my sump. (actually, my siphin breaking but ya know what i mean) how do i get a perfect balance of siphon and pump? i have adjustable valve things... i thing theyre called ball valves. i have those on both to control flow, but i cant seem to find a ?BALANCE!!! any advice?
 

zoalover34

Superstar Fish
Jun 5, 2006
1,269
2
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43
Kent, OH
#2
i was having the same problem lol.. what i did was i added another "u" tube that was siphon down to my sump b/c my pump was putting out more than was comming in.. everything is ballanced well now.. i had to keep an eye on it for 2 days to make sure water wasn't rising in either tank before i could sleep at night lol.. i mean who want's 105gallons of SW on their floor when they wake up!
 

1979camaro

Ultimate Fish
Oct 22, 2002
5,862
2
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42
San Ramon, CA
#5
can you clarify for me:

are you running two pumps? one to suck out and one to pump up? if so, that is your problem. it is going to be impossible to balance the flow

if you are running only a return pump, let the pump run at full and do the following:

1) If the display is overflowing reduce the return flow with your ball valve until it no longer overflows. make a mark to indicate the setting on the ball valve.

2) If the siphon is breaking because you are overflowing faster than the pump can return do one of the following:
- get a bigger pump
- use a ball valve on your overflow to reduce the amount of flow until the pump you have can catch up
 

#6
i have a pump inside the sump pushing water up, and a pvc pipe siphoning out of the display tank. the siphon is going too fast. the ball valve it really stiff, and whenever i try to turn it, it either wont turn, or it goes too far. only one pump going. im not really overflowing the main tank, or the sump... its more like a gradual rising of one or the other. i am scared that they will be very closely matched, and i will leave for school one day, and come home to a flooded main tank. im not worrying about a flooded sump, because the siphon will break before that.
 

rohnds

Large Fish
Apr 23, 2005
408
1
0
Austin, TX (born NYC)
#7
Unless your pump rating is greater than siphon tubes, you should have no reason to adjust anything.
Now on the other hand, if you pump rating is greater then your siphon. In another words, if more water is pumped into the tank from the sump than what is siphoned from the tank into the sump, then you will need to adjust the return. The best way to do this is place a ball valve on the return.
You should have to adjust anything if more water is siphoned to the tank than what the pump can handle since the siphon would adjust itself accodingly. This is because the siphon works using gravity (the difference in water lavel). Many recomend that you shoudl never regulate (restrict) the siphoned water from the tank to the sump.
You can add as many siphon tubes as you want but the water flow will be dictaed by gravity (difference in water level).
Rohn
 

rohnds

Large Fish
Apr 23, 2005
408
1
0
Austin, TX (born NYC)
#10
i just cant seem to get the siphon going at the exact rate.
The really isn't need to adjust anything unless you pump is pumping more water than siphon can handle. In that can adjust ball valve.

the siphon is going too fast.
To reduce the rate of siphoning water from the overflow box to the sump is a mistake. Expert recomend that you should never reduce this flow rate. Besides, as you stated, there is no reason to worry, since the siphon will break if the pump isn't able to keep up with the oerflow.

the ball valve it really stiff, and whenever i try to turn it, it either wont turn, or it goes too far
My guess is that your pump is pumping more water than siphon can handle and result ... overflow tank. I would replace the valve. I have noticed that some valves (even the new ones) are difficult to adjust. You simply have to pick one that turn smoothly.

its more like a gradual rising of one or the other.
It is either water level in the sump is rising or the water level in the tank is rising. It can't be both or just one or another .... simple logic. If you tell us whch, we might be able to help. Better description of the problem would help since we are unable to see the setup for ourselves and have to rely on the information you provide.

Rohn
 

#11
i freaking know how this all works rhonds! your getting on my nerves!

there is reason to adjust the siphon. my pump cant pump any faster, the siphon isnt going to say "oops, i should slow down..." i am going to have to adjust it.

who the heck are these experts? if i dont adjust the rate of my siphon, it will be breaking all the time.

my siphon goes faster than the pump regularly, it was stated above, yet you still tell me that my pump may be going faster. have you honestly read this thread?

i said its a gradual rising of one OR the other. there is no way that both would be rising unless i was adding water. simple logic! duh. depending on how i have the flow adjusted. if the valve is closed too much the siphon is too slow, and the main tank overfills, if it is stil set too fast, the sump fill.... simple logic here.

you want a description of the problem? either my sump is filling, and my siphin breaks, or my main tank is being filled, bacause the siphon is adjusted too slow. how do you get them perfectly balanced?
 

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rohnds

Large Fish
Apr 23, 2005
408
1
0
Austin, TX (born NYC)
#12
I am going to try explain this to you the best I can.

there is reason to adjust the siphon. my pump cant pump any faster, the siphon isnt going to say "oops, i should slow down..." i am going to have to adjust it.
As I stated earlier, the only way to adjust flow of water via siphon tube is to adjust water level of the tank. Rise it if you want to increase the flow or lower it to reduce the flow. If you manage to increase flow rate any other way, please let me know ... maybe you can rewrite the Bernoulli's Principle. You can decrease the flow by placing valve ... but this is counter productive.

if i dont adjust the rate of my siphon, it will be breaking all the time.
You don't. You adjust the return from the sump.

my siphon goes faster than the pump regularly, it was stated above,
Slow and calm down and then read my earlier post. I believe it was you who stated, im not worrying about a flooded sump, because the siphon will break before that.. So if this the case why are you trying to reduce the water flow of the siphon rather than regulating the return flow.

either my sump is filling, and my siphin breaks, or my main tank is being filled, bacause the siphon is adjusted too slow. how do you get them perfectly balanced?
I am sorry, no matter how you try to convince anyone, they both cannot happen unless you alter something. It is either the sump overflow or the tank overflow.
The sump simply cannot oveflow.

But let us assume that you have siphon rating of 1,200 GPH and pump rating of only 200GPH. Since the pump is unable to keep up with siphon, more water will drain to the sump than returning to the tank. As this happen the water level in the tank will drop below the critical level and siphon will break and stop water from draining to the sump. Bu the pump will continue pumping water to the tank and till the water level in the tank raised above the critical level. When this happen siphon should start automatically (that is if you have it setup correctly ... if not you can expect disaster).
Now what happen if the siphon can only drain 200GPH and the pump is rated at 1,200GPH. The pump will return more water than the siphon can drain and the tank will overflow. And this why you need to place valve on the return and adjust the pump.
Another criteria that must be taken into consideration when setting up a sump, is it size. The sump must be able to hold the amount of water that will drain from the tank during pump failure. If the sump isn't large enough, your sump will overflow incase of pump failure or if the pump isn't able to keep up with the siphon. The amount of water that will drain during these incident is easy to calculate. Take the difference in water level between the overflow box(s) and multiply by the surface area and divide 231. Another word, atleast this amount of space should be available in the sump.

i know how a sump works,
If you did, you wouldn't have this problem. I explian the sump/overflow process so it will give you better idea of how it works.



Rohn
 

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OCCFan023

Superstar Fish
Jul 29, 2004
1,817
5
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35
New Jersey
#14
how much excess water is being put into the sump than the pump can return?

If it is large enough that warrants a larger return pump than upgrading the return pump may be the only way if you cant adjust the water intake from the syphon (since you said the ball valve is not gong to adjust the flow rate in)

what kind of return pump do you have on here anyway?