Dangerous Thinking...

[FreshwaterJeff]

So, I've started to toss around the idea of getting a second tank (although the wife will probably kill me if I mention it to her) and my initial thought was to do something completely different than the heavily-planted community tank I currently have set up (which I'm still loving, even in moments of frustration).

Instantly, my thoughts wandered to African cichlids - no plants, completely different substrate and water parameters, and an alternate universe in terms of fish interaction.

There's only one problem: I know almost nothing about Africans.

If this idea is to move from an idea into the conceptual phase (and even then, it may not reach realization, at least not for the foreseeable future -- potentially even not until my current tank become free, which I hope is a long time from now), I'm obviously going to have to do my research -- and, more to the point, I'm definitely going to want advice and recommendations from the MFT crowd

Here's a starting point:

- My initial thought is something in the 20-30 gallon range (and yes, that's what my initial thought was when I ended up with the 55 gallon that I wish was a 75 gallon, but I mean it this time -- I promise ).

- My current set up cost me a lot -- and was well-worth it to do things right the first time around -- but I'd likely want to keep a pretty low budget on the set up (and if I skip acrylic for glass and since I won't need expensive plant lighting, I should be able to do...right? Maybe?) What are the basic equipment needs I need to know about?

- I have no clue whether I'd prefer Tangs or Malawis, though I've always enjoyed N. brichardi (but I've spent so little time watching Africans that I'm hesitant to even claim that preference) -- feel free to push your biases on me!

- Here's what I know as far as Africans' needs: Sand, rocks, caves; no plants. Higher pH and kH. No meaty foods for Malawis. ...and that's pretty much it. What I don't know: filtration needs (despite the above comment about keeping things under budget, I'm more than willing to go canister and would almost prefer it)? Stocking "rules of thumb"? Pretty much everything else?

- I fully anticipate lots of responses along the lines of "go to your LFS and watch the African tanks for a while to see which fish pique your interest," which I agree with. Similar "process-related" advice is welcome and wanted, from picking which fish to research to details about how to set up a healthy tank. And, go ahead and assume I'm going to read just about everything I can get my hands on ahead of embarking on this process, so please provide links that might help direct my learning process.

Once again, I am your humble sponge. Fill me with knowledge


(For what it's worth, I've also contemplated making the second tank a species tank for a pair of smaller SA cichlids or kribs -- but I think I'd have a lot more fun with Africans, even if it's just a colony of brichardi...)

 

[Purple]

Your choice of tank decor is about right - other than that - don't expect to be able to get many fish in there, and be very carefull about mixing species (and in some cases even the number of males of a single species).

Tell us what you want - and we've got a better chance of filling in the info gaps. "Africans' just doesn't narrow it down enough - we'd end up writing an encyclopedia on this thread. (Although that tank size does narrow it down a lot).

 

[FreshwaterJeff]

I don't know what I want - the encyclopedia is sort of what I was going for here

I realize "Africans" is a wide, wide scope - but I figured "Africans appropriate for a 30 gallon community or species tank" would at least narrow the scope enough for a few varieties of possibilities.

Of course, I realize the depth of what I'm asking for here - but really, what I want to hear are both (a) answers to the technological questions, like filtration needs (a lot of which, at least for Tangs, I got from Orion's sticky), and (b) experienced fish keepers saying things like "If I were in your position, I'd be tempted to try..."

I know it's impossible to list every possible combination I might like to try - but I want to know what other people are interested in trying Is that a bit easier?

 

[FreshwaterJeff]

Also, I suspect to not be able to keep a whole lot of fish - maybe even as few as a pair of Brichardis. But since I don't really know, I'd be interested to hear what else might work.

 

[Cichlid-Man]

LONG POST I will try and break this down piece by piece. LONG POST

- My initial thought is something in the 20-30 gallon range (and yes, that's what my initial thought was when I ended up with the 55 gallon that I wish was a 75 gallon, but I mean it this time -- I promise ).

-Depends. Really, for most africans generally speaking you want bigger then a 30gal...50+ is the best. But that all depends on which lake you want to focus on. Tangs can be much smaller then Malawians, meaning a smaller tank can be kept to keep them...again, it really depends on the lake and species selected.

- My current set up cost me a lot -- and was well-worth it to do things right the first time around -- but I'd likely want to keep a pretty low budget on the set up (and if I skip acrylic for glass and since I won't need expensive plant lighting, I should be able to do...right? Maybe?) What are the basic equipment needs I need to know about?

-Correct for the most part. I've seen some pretty lavish displays. Lighting in terms of huge plant type setups...no need. The only way i can see you spending chunks of money is either on the tank itself (+stand, hood etc), the fish, or the rocks (which can be picked up by the pound at landscape suppliers.) Or if you just MUST have fancy filtration...then that will run the bill up as well. Personally i'm using stock strip lights, cheap rocks i got from a landscaping place, and some HOB filters. The fish are the most expensive part of my setup. Cichlids are more expensive then community fish, be prepared for that....and for the most part Tangs are more expensive then most Malawians.

- I have no clue whether I'd prefer Tangs or Malawis, though I've always enjoyed N. brichardi (but I've spent so little time watching Africans that I'm hesitant to even claim that preference) -- feel free to push your biases on me!

I'm a Malawi guy myself. The thing i like most about Malawians are the colors dashing here and there and through the rocks, all around the tank constantly. Very active, colorful fish that make a very nice eye catching display. And when breeding time comes, the males dance all around the tank for the females flashing their colors. You don't usually get to see breeding in community tanks...but the cichlids show the breeding off. Not to mention the fact that once breeding has taken place i find it amazing that a fish holds the eggs...and later the fry in their mouth for weeks. Amazing parental aspects. I enjoy watching the mouthbrooders breed, its just different from many of the other cichlids who just lay eggs and fertilize them on a flat surface.​

I do enjoy the tangs too however, just not as much. Tangs present a very interesting bunch of cichlids. Not as bright or bold (darting around the tank as fast as they can like a lot of Malawians) but they make up for it in behavior. You can acctually see these guys thinking a lot of the time.​

- Here's what I know as far as Africans' needs: Sand, rocks, caves; no plants. Higher pH and kH. No meaty foods for Malawis. ...and that's pretty much it. What I don't know: filtration needs (despite the above comment about keeping things under budget, I'm more than willing to go canister and would almost prefer it)? Stocking "rules of thumb"? Pretty much everything else?

-I can't help so much on filtration, though i will say i am personally looking into getting a canister for one of my 55gal african tanks along with an HOB i have now. Really i guess its what you prefer and feel comfortable with. As well as what does the best job taking solid waste out of the water. I have found that a little more flow would make things easier in my personal tanks because the waste gets caught on one end under and around the rocks.
-Ah, plants. You don't have to say no completly to plants. Plants can be kept with africans, though you must pick them wisely. Plants such as Java fern and Aubias do pretty well because they can be attached to rocks and not uprooted. I can't speak for the Java Fern but the Anubias's leaves being tough protect them from most cichlid nibbles. Stuff like Val is common in cichlid tanks too.
-Stocking, again a factor dependant on the lake and species that is chosen. Generally for a Malawian tank, slight overstocking is preferred...this spreads out the aggression so it is not limited to just one subject in the tank. Hard to give stocking suggestions until we know what fish are going in...or being thinked about.

- I fully anticipate lots of responses along the lines of "go to your LFS and watch the African tanks for a while to see which fish pique your interest," which I agree with. Similar "process-related" advice is welcome and wanted, from picking which fish to research to details about how to set up a healthy tank. And, go ahead and assume I'm going to read just about everything I can get my hands on ahead of embarking on this process, so please provide links that might help direct my learning process.

-Yes that can help and point you in a direction, though the fish might not show all of their qualities in LFS tanks.
-As far as links go, i'd encourage you to check out our profiles here at MFT. We don't have an extensive database...but i am slowly working on the Africans.
-Also check out www.cichlid-forum.com they have very extensive articles and profiles. Great site to read up on cichlids. Go to "Library" on the Left or Top menu and look for articles there.

You've probably come across it in your research but i'll state it for those reading that don't know.

In each Rift lake you have distinct groups of cichlids. In Malawi you will find 3 groups. The Mbuna (Rock fish), the Haps, and the Peacocks. Of the 3 the Mbuna seem to be the most popular as far as LFS's go. These are you general "Mixed Africans" (though mixed africans are often hybrids of 2 types of Mbuna). The Haps and the Peacocks are the more elegant fish. With very nice finage and brilliant metallic scales (especially on their faces). I personally find the Haps and Peacocks a little bit harder to keep then Mbuna....but i don't think a seasoned aquarist will find problems in keeping any of the 3 groups. The Haps of Lake Malawi are really open water swimmers and grow much larger then the Peacocks or Mbuna. Peacocks like the Haps are more of a Sandy bottem, open water swimmer that have a simi-aggressive personality.​

The veggie diet is sometimes streched. This mainly pretains to the herbivores of the lake. A lot of the Haps species will often feed on smaller fish in the wild. While the Mbuna would rather feed on the rock algae with an occasional snail here and there. The Peacocks cruise the sandy lake bottems in the wild looking for inverts.​

I would give some info on Lake Tang, but i don't feel versed enough on it to feel like i am giving the right info. I'd rather you look into that through articles or another member such as Orion.​

For starters i'd look into these species to get you started, they are all fairly easy to keep and would make for some good first africans:


-Malawi Mbuna

• -Labidochromis caeruleus (Yellow Lab)
• -Pseudotropheus socolofi
• -Pseudotropheus saulosi
• -Metriaclima callainos (Cobalt Zebra)
• -Metriaclima estherae (Red Zebra)
• -Pseudotropheus sp. "Acei"

-Malawi Hap (Larger tank needed for most)

• -Placidochromis electra (Deep Water Hap)
• -Nimbochromis venustus (Large tank needed)
• -Protomelas taeniolatus (Red Empress)
• -Sciaenochromis fryeri (Electric Blue Hap)
• -Copadichromis borleyi

-Malawi Peacock

• -Lots of choices here, though i would not house them with Mbuna.

As for Tangs, you have a number of options. Especially options that can fit in smaller tanks. Of course Neolamprologus brichardi is a great option, Neolamprologus leleupi, Calvus, and shelldwellers are also choices.​

 

[MOsborne05]

Jeff, I think you should do a breeding tank centered around a pair of these

 

[Orion]

nice to know my ramblings have helped

Most Tang's aren't really what I would think of as a good beginners start into the vast world of african's. A lot of people want to see instant results with there tanks, and to me you really have to take the time to watch the tank and fish to really get the most out of keeping them. Add the initial cost of the fish to that, and many people end up with a bitter taste for Tang fish. Not saying they aren't for you, but I think it's well worth taking into account before investing a lot in livestock.

But there are a few good small community Tang tanks that you can keep in a 30 gallon. Julies and calvus are a good staple that normaly works well. Shell dwellers are almost always a blast to keep and watch. I've found that it's often much cheaper to buy stock off of other hobbiest rather than getting them from LFS's.

But I think that Morgan might be on to something if you want to go with some new world cichlids. You've already spent the time and money on a planted tank, so have you thought about getting some SA cichlids that also just happen to love planted tanks? Some apisto's have great color, and there are some larger cichlids as well that do ok with planted tanks. The biggest benifit I can see of this is that you don't have to waste all the work and time you've put into your planted tank, and save the money from buying a new setup.

As far as filter's go, cichlids are little pigs. They love to eat, and if you give them what they want then your going to need some decent equipment to help keep the tank clean. It's hard to give recomendations without knowing the fish or the tank that they will be kept in, but generaly speaking an oversized canister filter (or two ) will be a good place to start. I recently bought a odyssea canister filter off of ebay for around $50, and it's rated for tanks around 150 gallons I belive. I've had it maybe around a month now, and it seems to be doing a good job. Seems to be well worth the money for it. It's pretty much just a knock off of Ehiem.

 

[FreshwaterJeff]

Thanks for all the valuable input, folks.

The truth of the matter is this won't materialize for quite some time, and may not even happen until one day when my current tank is empty (especially since it sounds like I could do a whole lot more with 55 gallons than 20-30). But I appreciate the time you've taken to help build my knowledge just in case.

Orion, I have 2 keyhole cichlids (unfortunately, I suspect they're both males) and a pair of GBR's in my 55 gallon - I love them, but I feel like I know how to keep the smaller new world cichlids. This thread was aimed at expanding my horizons (but I concede that it's probably a really good idea to really try to breed a pair - maybe some Bolivians, dwarf acaras, checkerboards, or apistos like Morgan's). Also, my tap water is naturally hard, so that would both benefit me with rift lake cichlids and be an impediment to breeding SA cichlids (though, in neither case, likely a reason to guide my decision)...

Plus, I'm really happy with my current tank, but wanted to go a different direction if I set up a second tank.

Just in case, would 30 gallons be enough for a small school of brichardi (potentially as small a "school" as a pair) -- or does the fact that they breed so prolifically and protect their young so staunchly demand a larger aquarium? Perhaps, if I were to do it, the calvus/julies or shelldwellers would be the way to go in a tank that size.

I've got it - I'll just get a 90 gallon tank to upgrade my planted one, and then set up a rift lake tank in my 55 (I wish, haha)

 

[FreshwaterJeff]

Or, another thought -what about a pair of Anomalochromis thomasi? Would a species tank at 20 gallons be worthwhile -- or would I probably get more out of keeping one of the smaller SA's?

 

[RedRain5]

I like my mbunas
my blue zebra male is being bad at the moment picking on one of his his girls

yellow labs are a bit more peaceful you could probly keep a small school of them they are fun to watch they will dig a bit and strip algae off rocks. you may be able to keep some red zebra or something
mubuna are easy to take care or at least mine have been. They realy get excited at feeding time.

Java fern will grow the mbuna don't like to eat it must be nasty or something it grows with out too much troubble and amazon swords, mellon swords won't get eaten much more than an ocasional nibble or two

my reds and blue zebras dance and dig as well as many other intresting behaviors cichlids are great to watch

I have an african butterfly fish with mine just for a bit of contrast they are intresting fish as well and can be trained to eat out of your hand not a cichlid but a nice fish

good luck with the idea for your new tank cichlids are all great fish