Eco system discussion anyone?

[parajack]

I'm familiar with the short term success of the ecosystem, including my own Eco 60 which has taken my 55 marine tank to the next level after 4 months...this after being established for several years. I'm getting ready to dive into a 313 gal custom reef setup, and I want to do it right. I'm hearing that the longer term (after a few years) success of the ecosystem is more varied. Some with solid Ecosystem experience are suggesting that a bare bottom refugium with some live rock is easier and more effective in the long run. Some are suggesting that the detritus builds up in the miracle mud and in some cases causes serious nutrient / algae problems when no skimmer is used (which is one of the selling points of the Ecosystem). I'm also hearing that there are less toxic forms of algae which perfrom better than culerpa.

If anyone has any comment, can direct me to any prior discussions on this topic, or can suggest any current reading resources I would be very grateful.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[wayne]

Well there's always plenty of gas on reefcentral though at the moment it's mostly barebottom versus dsb.
However to cut and paste you a bit....
has taken my 55 marine tank to the next level after 4 months - I assume you've dropped/moved your nitrate levels and now have an algae free display? Incidentally do you have a skimmer as well?
'Some with solid Ecosystem experience are suggesting that a bare bottom refugium with some live rock is easier and more effective in the long run' For what - certainly not for nitrate reduction. This is the same as jamming the display with live rock. As a nitrate removel medium live rock is only average. This will be very similar to a classic Berlin system. And you will definitely need to get a skimmer back on the case then.

Some are suggesting that the detritus builds up in the miracle mud and in some cases causes serious nutrient / algae problems when no skimmer is used (which is one of the selling points of the Ecosystem). - Certainly there's an argument dsb's crash. I've never seen this argument for an eco setup - do you have a link?

I'm also hearing that there are less toxic forms of algae which perfrom better than culerpa. - Yes , Chaetomorpha, Gracilliaria.

Right now I'm preplanning a 180 tank, and plan to skim, thne go to a 3 feet long dsb in my sump. I'll probably run that pretty high flow, and keep algae on the top of that on reverse light schedule.

Go look at the stuff on RC , and realise this is a complicated, and not always well explained in the various threads. But if you have questions, comments ask away, but it's tough to answer some of your questions as you're really just skimming the surface.

 

[parajack]

Thanks Wayne for sending me in the right direction. Looks like a great resource to get started. That August tank of the month - what an inspiration. It's funny, I've been in the hobby for almost 10 years now. Enjoying it but ignorant and killing fish for many of those years. Now, the more I dig into it, the more I realize I don't know, and the more I look forward to the future. I'm approaching 50 and am looking forward to many years of enjoyment building a reef tank. When I built my house, I had it engineered, plumbed, and wired to support a large tank in the center of our greatroom. I built a separate mechanical room for maintenance which I'm hoping will workout. Tenecor is building my 313gal custom flat back hex with bent corners as we speak. I have endless questions now and am beginning to think that the tank may just be sitting in my greatroom empty for months while I figure out logistics, sump, refugium, etc., etc., I really want to do it right and have everything be well thought out, but that's going to be far more of a challenge than I had originally thought. Anyway, thanks for the referral.
Jack

 

[wayne]

Well that's interesting as I'm just starting building a house. I will have an office and put a 6*2*2 in there I think with something like a standard 4 foot plumbed in as a sump/refugium.
What did you build your stand from? I plan on using concrete blocks, and framing around them w/ wood - this seems quite easy. I also plan on plumbing in a floor drain and possibly a water supply as well - did you bother with this.
What are you going to do for flow. I am torn now between a closed loop and Tunzes on a multi controller? Also what will you do for lighting?

 

[aresgod]

a great link to a gentleman with a very large tank and who has obviously planned things quite well is www.oregonreef.com

 

[parajack]

Well that's interesting as I'm just starting building a house. I will have an office and put a 6*2*2 in there I think with something like a standard 4 foot plumbed in as a sump/refugium.
What did you build your stand from? I plan on using concrete blocks, and framing around them w/ wood - this seems quite easy. I also plan on plumbing in a floor drain and possibly a water supply as well - did you bother with this.
What are you going to do for flow. I am torn now between a closed loop and Tunzes on a multi controller? Also what will you do for lighting?

I'm having Tenecor build an unfinsihed stand to match the custom footprint of the tank. Its all going to ship at the end of the month. I plan to finish with the same black granite that my fireplace and harth are constructed with.
I have nothing but questions about refugium and sump construction and everything else for that matter. I have 2 two inch lines plumbed from the Greatroom tank location to a mechanical room I built specifically to maintain a large tank. Where can I research the latest thinking about refugium and sump setup? Is there any reason why I shouldn't just build my own? Is stock acrylic afordable and easily available? The idea of having a two or three stage refugium setup with one feeding into the next is interesting. If I have the space, would this optimize my reef system over time? I've been looking at some of the Hamilton 24x9x5" Halogen/compact florescent setups. My canopy would fit 4 of them for 1440 watts or better than 4 watts per gal. Do most hobbiests piece together their lighting to save money? With a 10,000K 250W Halogen and 2 55W compact florescents I'm looking at around $400 each before shipping.....
Jack

 

[wayne]

The more I research the more I like the idea of concrete blocks. I'm sure Tenecor will make a decent product, but it's your call, especially as you'll finish it yourself.

Where to research this stuff? Tough - plough the threads on reefcentral, especially the large tanks threads. There is absolutely no reason not to build your own refugium, though you should try welding some smaller acrylic or gluing some smaller glass yourself. I am personally not so great at gluing, but for many sump applications you don't need to be that good as only a few walls are fully weight bearing. Stock acrylic is actually quite pricey comapred to glass. I would likely try to get a big second hand tank and build inside of it. I can probably get a horrily scratched avrylic tank from my lfs for a very fair price - if you know of a maintennace company as k them maybe?
The two or three stage refugium stuff is very interesting. There are a lot of tricks you can do. Drop the water into a skimmer chamber. Overflow it to a deep sand bed area, or have a buket dsb. Overflow to your algae area return.

I'm not so familiar with those Hamilton features as they're simply irrelevant to me. I personally cannot consider anything except halides now though as they minimise the wiring compared to the mountain of fluoro tubes I use now, and frankly give a lot of power per buck. I can get basic250 Watt fixtures for about 180 pounds new, or fancy looking ones for about another 20 pounds, and that's plenty of light for me. If I don't like the colour I'll just use a shoplight and run NO fluorescents to balance it out. You save long term on having simpler bulbs too.

I agree , there's a lot to think about. I guess it's part of the fun, but it's a pricey way to experiement.