Feeding Question and Water Changes?

[matthew]

I have a new tank and went yesterday to stock it with:

7 neon tetra - paid for six and got a stowaway!
6 black neons
2 small pepper cory's (well they look like peppered cory's but have darker bellies and are a bit smaller)

They're healthy and LOVE eating, I was wondering if I should feed them once/twice a day, or maybe every other day? I feed the tetras flake food and the cory's sinking pellets. Also I hae frozen bloodworm, would these fish appreciate this??

Just to make sure the tank doesn't crash, I've been doing daily water changes of 50%, can I keep doing this? (as the bacteria are in the filter media and gravel, not the water column) - or so I've read.

Also I noticed the black neon's almost chase the neon tetras sometimes, showing slightly more dominance, even though they're the same size. Is this normal? They are fine to be housed together tho?

 

[Lotus]

I would only feed once a day or every other day while you're cycling. They would probably all love the frozen bloodworms, but only feed it as a treat, not exclusively.

There's a nice article on cycling with fish here: http://www.aquamaniacs.net/forum/cms_view_article.php?aid=14

 

[matthew]

Thanks for the speedy reply. Also I've been doing 50% changes rather than the recommended 20% (surely 50% is better?) - since the bacteria live in the filter media and substrate (and not the water column) by changing the water more often and larger amounts would benefit by diluting any possible ammonia, nitrites or nitrates.

Luckily the water straight from the tap (dechlorinated of course) is the right param's for my fish, so im doing daily 50% changes, just for a few weeks until im sure the bacteria are sufficient. None of the fish are showing signs of stress or look ill at all so Im assuming this would all be alright?

And do black neons dominate neon tetras? They are all safe to keep together though right? I assumed they'd pretty much act identically. Some of the neons will school with the black neons and visa versa but they certainly do know who'se who at the end of the day!

 

[FroggyFox]

I think daily 50% is probably overkill...how big of a tank is it?

Black neons and neon tetras aren't really related...and the black neons will get quite a bit larger...generally they are more aggressive than normal neons...but it looks like you have a big enough group of each that you'll probably be ok. Fish do chase each other a lot...as long as they're not stressing them out too bad or doing any physical harm.

 

[matthew]

It is a 15gallon tank, and only partially cycled (I never knew about this whole cycling thing), but I read a really good article on cycling with fish and it said 2 x 50% changes daily, so im a bit confused?

 

[CAPSLOCK]

If you can do 50% daily, go for it. Two 50% changes a day isn't necessary (really, even 50% daily isn't necessary, but it doesn't hurt). It can't hurt to overkill on water changes while you're cycling.

Even within a group of black neons you'll notice a bit of chasing occasionally. But it's not serious, and nobody gets hurt. They just like to sort out dominance.

The black neons are handy, because their black stripe fades if the water quality drops. So if you suddenly notice them getting pale, it's time to check the parameters.

 

[FroggyFox]

The biggest reason for doing water changes is to keep the ammonia and nitrates at a somewhat liveable level for your fish. If you can keep it under control with 20% a day...then thats what you should do. If you have to do 50% a day...then thats what you should do. Honestly I think that overkill with water changes is just unduly stressing out your fish. 50% twice a day is definitely unneccesary IMO. I also think that you should keep in mind the more water changes you do the longer it could take to cycle the tank...because you're keeping the concentrations of ammonia and nitrite from peaking and creating that large bacteria colony that you need. So in other words I dont think you should try to keep the ammonia and nitrite at 0.

oh..and another thing that could help your cycle would be to add some live plants to our tank...so you might read up on that.

 

[matthew]

Thanks for your comments..

It's actually a heavy planted tank, so I was hoping that'd help speed up the cycling. It's a jebo tank and I can do water changes without stressing the fish much, so I'll stick with regular changes for the next few weeks to make sure this tank is pristine for my little guys!

 

[matthew]

http://www.timstropicals.com/Compatibility/NameResults.asp <-- The following link said that neon tetras and black neon tetras are incompatible!?!? I've bought them already and even though there's a bit of chasing going on, its not concerning me? Why would it state they aren't compatible?

 

[valleyvampiress]

The biggest reason for doing water changes is to keep the ammonia and nitrates at a somewhat liveable level for your fish. If you can keep it under control with 20% a day...then thats what you should do. If you have to do 50% a day...then thats what you should do. Honestly I think that overkill with water changes is just unduly stressing out your fish. 50% twice a day is definitely unneccesary IMO. I also think that you should keep in mind the more water changes you do the longer it could take to cycle the tank...because you're keeping the concentrations of ammonia and nitrite from peaking and creating that large bacteria colony that you need. So in other words I dont think you should try to keep the ammonia and nitrite at 0.

oh..and another thing that could help your cycle would be to add some live plants to our tank...so you might read up on that.

I think many people get confused when someone says to take x% of water out a day because there are so many different opinions out there. One thing that you did nail on the head is that you should change what you have to, but doing more won't hurt. If you have two fish in a 20g, obviously you won't have to change as much water a day when fishy cycling as you do if you have ten fish in a 10g (which is a bad example because that could be overcrowding). The amount you have to change depends on how big your tank is and how many fish, if any, you have in it (feeding habits is another contributor). It would probably be too hard to judge an exact percentage, this is why you NEED test kits, especially when you're cycling.

If your test is showing .25ppm of ammonia/nitrites, you should do a water change. Most people would think I'm crazy for saying do a water change with only .25ppm of ammonia/nitrite showing up, but here is the plain and simple fact: the "good" bacteria will always grow if there is some amount of ammonia/nitrite that can't be compensated for. In other words, if if ammonia/nitrite is showing up in your tank at all, there aren't enough bacteria that can compensate for that, meaning there will definitly be more growing to help "eat" the waste.

One myth that is commonly repeated time and time again amoung aquarists, is that bacteria will grow faster if there is more "food" (aka ammonia/nitrite). This is why some people suggest to overfeed your fish if you are cycling. However, this is NOT true. As I've stated earlier, the bacteria will continue to grow in numbers whether there is a lot or a little amount left uncompensated for. This is also why doing water changes will not slow down, or speed up cycling. It will go at the same rate whether you have .01ppm ammonia/nitrite, or 2ppm ammonia/nitrite.

FroggyFox said: "So in other words I dont think you should try to keep the ammonia and nitrite at 0."

This is correct. This is why no one ever reccomends doing 100% water change (besides other reasons). One thing being overlooked though is that whether you want to or not, you can't get rid of ALL of the ammonia/nitrite in a day by just doing one water change a day. Your test may read zero after you'e done the change, but your fish are gonna release waste later on in the day. The amount of bacterial colonies is meant to compensate for the amount your fish can produce in one "sitting", not how much they can produce in a day. Therefore, if there is even the slightest amount of waste left from your fish in a "sitting", there will always continue to be bacterial growth.

 

[FroggyFox]

I would disagree that you should do a change with .25 of anything. The amount of bacteria in your filter directly correlates with the amount of waste being put into the tank...therefore YES some bacteria will colonize even if there are minute traces of ammonia and nitrate in the tank...however if you dont let the levels peak there will never get to be enough bacteria because you're not giving them the "true" amount of waste that they need. Same thing with when you do a fishless cycle you are creating a much larger colony of the different bacterias (or whatever the plural of bacteria is..maybe its bacteria) and then when you stock the tank fully...the remaining bacteria will die off.

With a fish-in cycle you want to build up those colonies slowly...so if you are doing a lot of water changes now...you might slowly back off of them...or let the ammonia peak at 1 or 2ppm for a couple of days. It takes about twice as long for the nitrite to peak and drop to 0 as it takes the ammonia to peak and drop to 0...without those peaks there's not really a good way to follow the cycle and I believe that you're extending the cycle indefinitely if you are doing too many water changes.

I can back this up is because fish-in cycling is the "slow" version of fishless cycling...and when you do a fishless cycle you can literally chart the results and see whats happening and how long it takes to get those colonies cultured. WHY does it only take 2 weeks to fishless cycle a tank whereas it takes months to do a cycle fish-in? Because of the water changes and the lower amounts of ammonia being put in the tank.

As for the Compatibility issue: Matthew...you have to find out sooner or later that EVERYONE in this hobby has their own version of what works and what doesn't. SOME things are black and white (alligator gars should not be kept with guppies in a 10G tank)...whereas other things are hit and miss (Angelfish being kept with neon tetras). I think your black neon/neon tetra questions are in that second group. They would do best together if you had a large tank with plenty of room for each fish to hide and then a large enough group of each of them that they'll leave each other alone. However, I dont think there is any danger that the Black neons will eat the neons...or that they'll actually cause any physical harm. Some people might say they dont think you should put them together in a small tank. Some people might just want to point out that even though black neons are called neons...they're very different and they wont "school" together.

Its your call...obviously you already bought them...you might as well see how it goes right? You still have to get them to make it through a cycle and I think that most people here would have their money on that you will probably lose the neons during the cycle and that the black neons might make it...we'll see.

 

[valleyvampiress]

I would disagree that you should do a change with .25 of anything. The amount of bacteria in your filter directly correlates with the amount of waste being put into the tank...therefore YES some bacteria will colonize even if there are minute traces of ammonia and nitrate in the tank...however if you dont let the levels peak there will never get to be enough bacteria because you're not giving them the "true" amount of waste that they need.

If that were true, my tank wouldn't be cycled. I did 50% water change every day for a month and now my tank is completely stable with 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites. One thing that you still aren't understanding is that the SPEED at which the bacteria grows is always the same no matter what the level of ammonia/nitrite is as long as it's not zero.

Another thing that you are not understanding from what I said is that whatever the fish produce in one "sitting" is how much the bacteria will need to compensate for, not what they can produce in a day. What I mean by this is that, lets say someone with a 10g does 50% water change a day with a well stocked tank. Let's say that their ammonia or nitrite are at .25ppm. When they do a water change, they re-test the water, and it now shows up at zero. Two hours later, a few fish have done their thing. There is now ammonia/nitrite back in the water. The bacteria that have already grown, eat what they can, but there is still some left because there isn't enough of them yet. So setting your peramterers to zero during a fishy cycle IS NOT setting back your cycle.

Now on to what you call, "true" levels. Do you agree that if there are even small traces of ammonia/nitrite that there is still more bacteria that will grow? Do you agree that the bacteria will eat up the ammonia/nitrite right when it is produced? This has to be true, otherwise when we test to see if our tank is cycled, we wouldn't always find it to be zero when it is. So in this case, if there is even a SLIGHT ammount showing up, it will be enough to keep the bacteria growing at the same rate as it would no matter how high or low the by products are. There is no need for a "peek" because as long as there is SOME bit of ammonia/nitrite, there will continue to be bacterial growth. It's hard for me to explain it in a different way if you didn't get it the first time. My tank did not "peek". So like I said earlier, if the theory of "peeking" and cycling were true, my tank wouldn't be cycled.

Same thing with when you do a fishless cycle you are creating a much larger colony of the different bacterias (or whatever the plural of bacteria is..maybe its bacteria) and then when you stock the tank fully...the remaining bacteria will die off.

You are confusing the AMOUNT of bacteria compared with the SPEED at which they grow. Of course with any tank that is fully cycled, whether fishless or fishy, will have enough bacteria to eat what is available, and no more bacteria than that. The speed that it grows is always at a constant rate.

With a fish-in cycle you want to build up those colonies slowly...so if you are doing a lot of water changes now...you might slowly back off of them...or let the ammonia peak at 1 or 2ppm for a couple of days. It takes about twice as long for the nitrite to peak and drop to 0 as it takes the ammonia to peak and drop to 0...without those peaks there's not really a good way to follow the cycle and I believe that you're extending the cycle indefinitely if you are doing too many water changes.

I can back this up is because fish-in cycling is the "slow" version of fishless cycling...and when you do a fishless cycle you can literally chart the results and see whats happening and how long it takes to get those colonies cultured. WHY does it only take 2 weeks to fishless cycle a tank whereas it takes months to do a cycle fish-in? Because of the water changes and the lower amounts of ammonia being put in the tank.

I have heard of fishless cycled lasting just as long, if not longer than fishy. In fact, I read it happening during that time frame multiple times, and do not find it uncommon at all. You and I both know there are many contributors to how long it really takes to complete a cycle. I'm sure you've heard fishy cycled taking that short a period of time as well, have you not? I know I have.

My point is, amount is not in direct correlation to speed.

 

[NoDeltaH2O]

Apart from the debate about bacteria growth, something perhaps more important is that the tank in question here is planted. Ans planted tanks can be completely cycleless if the plant growth is sufficient to consume all of the ammonia as it is produced, as ammonia is the preferred form of Nitrogen for plants.

Encourage plant growth by monitoring NPK levels, well, at least NP levels. Provide sufficient light, CO2, iron, and traces and forget about the cycle if you wish. The next time I start a planted tank, I am going to get the plants growing well ebfore I add fish #1 to it, as this will sidestep the whole nitrogen cycle completely. If, in fact, your tank truly is HEAVILY planted, and you are doing all those WCs, you may be starving your plants. Can you post a pic of your tank for us all to see please.

 

[f8fan]

I am a total plant "know nothing" but I do kinda get the concept about them consuming nutrients (the SAME nutrients that are cycling your tank....)

Agree with Delta here (and scratching my head as to why this wasn't thought of sooner heh heh).

Once again, Delta, you and that balance! *thumbsup2

 

[valleyvampiress]

Apart from the debate about bacteria growth, something perhaps more important is that the tank in question here is planted. Ans planted tanks can be completely cycleless if the plant growth is sufficient to consume all of the ammonia as it is produced, as ammonia is the preferred form of Nitrogen for plants.

Encourage plant growth by monitoring NPK levels, well, at least NP levels. Provide sufficient light, CO2, iron, and traces and forget about the cycle if you wish. The next time I start a planted tank, I am going to get the plants growing well ebfore I add fish #1 to it, as this will sidestep the whole nitrogen cycle completely. If, in fact, your tank truly is HEAVILY planted, and you are doing all those WCs, you may be starving your plants. Can you post a pic of your tank for us all to see please.

I am in complete agreement with this. I have heard people not having to cycled because there tank is so heavily planted. The reason I was trying to explain the bacterial growth process is because FroggyFox was claiming that doing too many water changes will slow the cycled, which is not true if you look at the facts. At any rate, I know others can learn from this thread as well so it is something worth debating.