First Saltwater Just 'a few' questions.

[Dan Steveo]

Hey guys, it has always been my desire to go SW and i started about 8 months ago with my planning and acquiring of some equipment.

I have a 240Ltr Fluval Roma and it has a 70Ltr Sump with about 60 ltrs in it. Now it's been running a while (6 weeks) and i've come up against some small issues... Ill get some pics up as well but first i'll explain.

Substrate:
I bought this Coral sand that said 1mm on the bag, Im not convinced it's ok. I've gone for a DSB it's 5"-6" and i kinda like it. I can see bubbles forming in the top layers at the glass so im sure its working but my issue is the grains look too big on the surface inch.. the smaller particles have gone down to the lower layers and compressed somewhat. Im not sure the critters will be able to move the sand easy enough. I've seen some bristleworms and so on around the rocks so i know there's some critters but i've not seen any in the sand.... My worry is that there will be untouched areas that will pocket and wipeout the tank... I have a cleanup crew consisting of 4 sand sifting snails and 3 red leg hermit crabs and 2 emerald crabs.. I did have another emerald crab and a cleaner shrimp which i will move on to later.. I've read and heard that sand sifting creatures are bad but the snails are ok...

When the nitrates started dropping off i bought 2 clownfish to help the tank mature over the next month.. (not realising the LFS had Whitespot and one of my clowns has a spot on him when i let him out the bag) then the morning after it was worse.. They were happy and wouldnt stop eating so i kept feeding them as much as they can consume 3 times a day (no leftovers) then i was told by LFS to use 'OOdinex' made by EsHa. It seemed to work.. I'd read it kills invertebrae or can wipe out the whole tank... but i tried it anyway as other people had had complete success.. I deducted 'literage' of the tank for LR Displacement and then under-dosed slightly just in case.

The whitespot cleared up within two days but my cleaner shrimp lost his 2 main antennae. I thought he may be moulting and he was hiding and laying on his side but looked like he was trying to pull off his exo-skeleton.. So i left him.. The next day there was an emerald crab dead on the sand with his belly open... Yes he was dead i checked the insides and there was meat and he smelt... And then i looked for the cleaner shrimp and he had had his head bitten off and belly ripped open presumably by the nearby emerald crab.. I figured the treatment may be at fault so i did an 'emergency' 2 hour salt mix and changed 10%.

I then put the protein skimmer back on.. and had to wait.. everything else seemed healthy.. Here's my BIGGEST worry.. If the treatment may have killed those two would it have killed many of the invertebrae in the sand? If it has i could have an issue... So i waited till night and saw 1 bristleworm crawling around and a little shrimp thing so i know there's some life but im worried it may have irreperably wiped out my live rock critters..

I then found a bumblebee snail and read they are sensitive to nitrates like ALL invertebrae especially cleaner shrimp.. My nitrates had been around 20-40ppm and i thought although high and causing algal blooms this wouldn't harm the fish etc... Could it have been these and not the treatment?
It's now come down to 10ppm.

Last question... Sump... My sump is not too bad.. just enough room and i have a nearly empty middle chamber which could be a refugium.. I plan to keep a mandarin or two in the future and i know i will need a large food supply or they'll end up going back =( I have pictures but there was a sliding door in the way somewhat so bear with me.. The protein skimmer works best overhanging the baffle to the end chamber but its pump sits in the 'refugium'. the heater is also in the refugium.. My question is will it be ok having a refugium with DSB ANd Beneficial algae in there? or is there too much movement from Protein skimmer outlets/pump... I thought about putting a sponge on the inlet for Protein skimmer which may stop the critters and copepods etc going up inside.. Any Ideas?

ok heres some pics then i'll Bullet point the questions.. Sorry this is long winded. Ill have to do some pics seperate as it wont do all at once.....
P.s Please excuse the unsightly algae its getting better now..

 

[Dan Steveo]

 

[Dan Steveo]

View attachment 11407 View attachment 11408 View attachment 11409 View attachment 11410 View attachment 11411

 

[Dan Steveo]

Any ideas on that wierd worm thing in last pic? just saw it this morning.. looks a little like a feather duster tube.. and theres literally 50+ feather dusters in tank majority being tiny.

 

[Dan Steveo]

Not sure why those last photos just came up as 'attatchment....' Here they are again...

 

[CAPSLOCK]

I think the sand tends to do that - the more you have critters stirring it around, the less you get it compressing at the bottom. That is why you don't want really small sand grains doing a DSB. The things that wiggle through the sand are fine - like snails, crabs, bristleworms, digging gobies or jawfish - but what you want to avoid (especially with a mandarin in the future) would be things that exclusively eat the microfauna of the sand bed - ie most starfish, sand sifting gobies, probably others that I can't think of right now. Have you considered a fighting conch or two? There looks like a lot of area to your sand bed. The conchs get a bit bigger than a lot of the other burrowing snails, and their burrowing through the sand will help keep it mixed. Get along with other snails as well. With sand that deep, if you ever intend to have burrowing critters (probably including a conch), make sure that the rockwork is stable against the bottom of the aquarium rather than just resting on top of the sand, or else the burrowing can make an avalanche.

If the nitrates went up to 40ppm over a few days, I don't think that would harm the snails or shrimp, and especially not the crabs. I've been fighting with mine up to 80ppm at times and have had no observable issues with my snails (and I still hear my pistol shrimp snapping occasionally, so I know he's still around). It wouldn't surprise me if the crab killed the shrimp, or if the shrimp died and then the crab went after his body.

I can't tell from the picture what the worm / tube thing is. Is it mobile?

On the sump - not something that I am really that good with but I'll give you my impressions. I wouldn't put a sponge on the skimmer intake, I think that it would gunk up and overall make more trouble than it's worth. You'll lose a few copepods and such up the skimmer, but not too much. Most of them will be in the macroalgae in the fuge. Personally I wouldn't waste the space in the fuge for the DSB, since you've already got one in the tank. I'd give it more room for algae and water volume.





Just to let you know, I would suspect very strongly that you still have ich / white spot present in the tank. There are only a few ways to completely eradicate it, those being copper medications, hyposalinity, and tank transfer method. If you only still have the two clowns, tank transfer is by far the easiest way to treat it - the basic gist is that the ich lifecycle matures and drops off the fish overnight every several days. So you move the fish to a new tank in the morning every few days (days 4, 7, 10, and 13 I believe), before the next stage of the lifecycle can reinfect the fish. So it only requires 2 tank setups - tank/container, heater, powerhead/air stone (and they can be small tanks - you could probably do 5g tanks or buckets with 2 clowns if they are small). After transferring the fish, you totally dry out the tank, which will kill any ich that had dropped off the fish. In the meantime (and for a while afterwards, since tank transfer only takes 2 weeks), you let the main tank sit fallow without any fish for 10 weeks (I believe - not positive about the time). The ich can't complete its lifecycle without fish present, so any remaining in the tank will die out in that time. A 10g tank would probably be ideal for the two fish for this time, and can be one of the transfer tanks. This also lets inverts and LR / sand bed become totally ich free. Then after all is said and done, you conveniently have an extra setup for quarantine so you don't get ich in the tank again - much easier than treating once you've gotten a tank full of fish.

Alternatively you can just "manage" ich in the tank by keeping it a limited stress environment - which would be peaceful fish, not overcrowded, well fed, good water quality - but be aware that ich is always in there. In that case the fish have a few of the parasites at a low enough level that it doesn't harm them, but stress can bring it out and new arrivals are likely to get it. A lot of people do this, knowingly or otherwise. Quarantining any new arrivals will prevent ich from entering the tank at all which is an overall healthier environment obviously - but if you aren't planning on that in the overall scheme of things there is really no point to totally curing the clowns and letting the tank go fallow.

 

[Dan Steveo]

I can't express how much you have helped me, I really really do appreciate it. Ill certainly get a few of them snails and i will get loads of macroalgae for fuge and as you say i wont need to bother with a dsb in there.. I'll most likely get a 10 gal tank to QT in.. I did think whitespot would not go on its own but im not sure if it will survive if it doesnt infect the fish...

If the fish are 'clean' for 8 weeks does that mean the whitespot wouldn't get what they need to survive and will die anyway? or do they find other ways when there are fish in the tank?

im quite happy with my setup but im already looking for a new one as mine was meant to have a weir to stop the overflow noise but the weir leaked so i ripped it out... =[ i will eventually want a 6ft by 2ft by 2ft in the future anyway so ill wait till i move out which means this tank will be here for a year or so..

Oh and that worm thing wasnt there the last few weeks.. just appeared when i was taking the pics.. It doesnt seem to move of its own accord.... it looks similar to a feather duster or a really big piece of excrement.. lol but i have not a clue as to what could make one that big in my tank..

My main concern is that the treatment has knocked out a majority of life in the tank.. The skimmer has taken care of the treatment.. I can't believe how effective they are at pulling contaminants etc out of the water..

 

[CAPSLOCK]

How is your ammonia level? If it is still at 0, your bacteria have survived which is good. I would think that if the snails survived it, the majority of life on the rocks probably did, however you may have killed stuff like the feather dusters and potential coral spores (or whatever they grow from) on the rocks. If you are overly concerned with it, you could always add another live rock to the tank, but if it were me I'd wait a bit and see how everything is progressing first. You may find that there isn't any noticeable loss of biodiversity.

It is possible that the feather duster in the tube was killed and so the tube is all that remains - otherwise I really don't know what the tube is. Could be something in the rocks was growing or escaping and pushed it out, I have no idea just making a random guess.

What kind of overflow are you using?

Short answer - no, the fish not showing any spots for 8 weeks doesn't mean the ich is gone from the tank. Especially with a hardy (and hopefully tank bred/raised) fish like a clown or a damsel. It just means that the fish are not showing signs. This is why quarantine is good - because they may not be showing signs despite the parasite being present.

The ich / white spot requires a fish to complete its lifecycle - and it cannot use something like a shrimp or snail instead. But ich can be present at non-symptomatic levels indefinitely with fish present. I can't remember the actual average ich parasite lifespan without a fish; I believe it is something like 6 weeks. Since there is variation, the usual recommendation is to leave the tank fallow for 8-10 weeks, with 10 weeks being much better since there is something like 99%+ likeliness all the parasites have died.

The white spots you actually see on the fish are just one life stage, the part which requires the fish. Basically the parasite infects the fish, and as it reproduces it forms a cyst, which are the white spots. Then the ich drops off and settles on the rocks / sand for a little while (not sure how long), where it matures into a free swimming stage. This stage then finds a new fish host to reproduce in. With no host, the free swimming stage eventually dies but it can live for several weeks, and the exact amount of time varies somewhat.

Aside from tank transfer, the only proven methods to eliminate the ich parasite are hyposalinity (dropping the salt level from 1.024-1.026 down to 1.008 - and holding it VERY steady there for a few weeks, which is difficult, then slowly bringing it back up) or copper medications. The main difficulty is that both of those methods also kill off any other inverts in the tank, including anything in the live rock - and copper will also absorb into the rock, sand, tank silicon (supposedly), etc and thus make it unable to support inverts in the future. The parasite itself is only susceptible to either method during a certain part of its lifecycle - the free swimming stage, I believe. So either of those methods need to be continued for a few weeks to ensure that all of the parasites have been killed. That's also the reason that tank transfer method goes through several transfers - so you can remove all the parasites as they progress through their life cycles.

A lot of medications will treat only the cyst, but not the actual parasite. As a result, the fish looks like it is cured and probably feels better, but the ich is still present just not at a high enough level to show up on the fish. Once ich is in the tank, it is present at small amounts in each life stage. The fish can live with a small amount of the parasite - what would happen in the big wide ocean, is the parasite would drop off the fish and reinfect several new fish, none enough to kill the fish. Unfortunately in the confines of a tank, they all reinfect the same fish and generally a fish that is stressed due to new surroundings, tankmates, water, etc - so it can easily fatally overwhelm the fish. A less stressed, otherwise healthy fish will often fight off the infection, and not as many parasites will successfully reproduce each time, so that you never (or rarely) see any visible signs. So people believe they don't have ich in their tank, until something brings it out - a power outage, new fish, vacation and the fish get hungry, etc.

If you have the ability to set up a small quarantine tank, it would be a good idea to do so now, especially if you want to have a large reef type setup down the road. Now you could treat the two clowns, get the tank totally ich-free, and have minimal effort to do so - just grab a 10g QT, small heater, and extra powerhead. You don't even really need a hood or light on the QT tank. Then you will be already set up to quarantine any new incoming fish, so you don't have to worry about trying to catch fish from a 6' tank with a million hiding spots and coral and all. Much more difficult.

You can use a 5g bucket for the tank transfer - they will end up being in the bucket only a total of 6 days. And use either an extra powerhead or an airstone for water movement. A little ammo-lock or prime, don't worry about changing water since they will only be in there 3 days. Don't use anything from one tank to the other, and don't move water between tanks once the fish have been in it. No sand or rock or anything, but you can have a few pieces of PVC pipe for hiding places (you can even have stuff like a few aquarium ornaments in there if you have them laying around - just something that can be completely dried out in between uses).
-Start with the fish in the 10g. Small heater, powerhead.
-On day 4 transfer them to the bucket transferring as little water as possible, and ideally not stirring up the bottom of the tank water where the parasites are. Capturing them in a plastic container can be easier than using a net.
-Totally dry out the 10g tank, heater, powerhead.
-Day 7 - transfer back to 10g QT and dry out bucket and accessories.
-Day 10 - back to bucket.
-Day 13 - back to 10g, and set it up so they are all set for 6 more weeks while the main tank is still fallow.

 

[Dan Steveo]

Perfect thank you very much. Im gunna get a 10g qt tank and i'll let it run for a while and treat when its all stable. The worm thing broke up today so i think it was fish waste from inside some live rock.. And all the levels have been perfect the whole time the last 3-4 weeks (before i had any fish at all). Just retested today:

Ammonia. 0
Nitrite. 0
Nitrate. 0 (im also running de-nitrate media through a small bottle)
PH. 8.2
Salinity (SG) 0.25

Everything seems fine, the algae is slowing down now and should start to die off very soon. The cyano might not go till i get some phosphate removal media in there which i will soon. I've got some 'good' algae in the sump now with a lot of copepods too so tank should be well on the way.

With the qt tank would an internal filter be ok or do i just need a powerhead? as they're going to be in there for a while im sure some filtration would be neccesary.

Also i had a blenny on order before whitespot came up, i had to collect him today as they cant hold for too long.. The LFS said they don't normally catch whitespot so is he safe to leave in the DT?

Thanks again i really do appreciate it.. Only the basic principle is the same on marine.. The rest is a whole other ball game. I've had tropicals for years without any issues and marine is a sure step up. Im sure with time my experience will grow.

 

[CAPSLOCK]

The scooter blenny may not be particularly susceptible to ich but I would think that it could complete the lifecycle and allow the ich to remain in the tank. It depends if scooters just do not get it enough to be harmed by it, or if the ich actually can't penetrate and use the fish as the host at all. Scooters are probably not going to be great in a QT tank for a while because of their feeding methods, too.

BTW, that fish has very similar requirements food-wise to a mandarin so if I were you I wouldn't get a mandarin in addition until you have the larger tank ready - too much competition for food in a small area right now.

You could use the internal filter on the quarantine tank, basically anything to create water movement. If you are planning to do the tank transfer using another tank or a 5g bucket or basically any container, I wouldn't have the filter floss or any other media in the filter during just the short time before each transfer - you would just have the toss it out each time and it is not really going to have much to filter from 2 clowns in 3 days. I have used a whisper filter on my QT tank - no media in it. After that, once they are going to be in the 10g for several weeks, you could add the filter media back in.

Since you still have 0 ammonia / nitrites, I don't think you did anything to kill off the bacteria. It tends to be fairly hardy.

Is it a definite to move and get a new tank in the next year or so?

 

[Dan Steveo]

Thanks again you're so helpful i cant even put it into words.
I will do extensive research on the blenny. If i have to i'll add in a bag of copepods every few days.

I'll make sure theres a good supply of copepods before i get a mandarin for sure. I will definitely be moving out in a year and will be getting a 6ft tank so will have to carefully and slowly start again... I've got copper treatment from TMC Called Marine Cure, it was the only treatment in the lfs. I've also bought an api copper test kit.

I pulled a few tiny bits of liverock from tank and put inside the filter in QT tank so im hoping that will speed up the mini-cycle. All my levels are good in main tank still. now have two separate small pumps running De-Nitrate media and Rowaphos to drop nitrates and phosphates to 0 to kill algae and cyano then i'll take them both out i think.

The DSB will do the rest.

 

[CAPSLOCK]

I'm not familiar with the specific medications, regardless make sure to read the directions on any medication you add. Clownfish are not very copper sensitive, but even so it is a good idea to bring the copper level up slowly. Add maybe half the recommended dosage for the first day, then add more the second day to bring it up the recommended level, and use the test to make sure it is indeed there.

Note that if you do use copper with any live rock in the QT tank, you will not be able to add the rock back into the main tank afterwards. Also, the rock will "absorb" some of the copper and can make measuring the proper amount more difficult, so definitely use the test kit to make sure the level is staying therapeutic.

I believe that mandarins are sensitive to copper, which leads me to think probably the scooter would be as well. If you have the option to not introduce him to the infected system (so you don't have to treat him at all), that would be ideal. Otherwise, if you do ever need to treat him the tank transfer would be easier on him than copper.

 

[Dan Steveo]

ah i see and very good points, the blenny i will leave in there or get my lfs to look after him for 4 weeks.. I was thinking keep him in QT with the clowns and 'inject' some copepods in with him every day so he's definitely getting food. Then adding him to the tank after 4 weeks and treating the clowns? there may be more chance of the tank being de-whitespot as it was fishless... Or is there another treatment that is ok with most/all secies that doesnt involve copper? I dont want to transfer the blenny and then give him whitespot in the process if he is indeed non-immune to it..

 

[CAPSLOCK]

The tank transfer method is a very safe, and surprisingly easy, way to completely treat the ich on the fish (the ich left in the main display tank still need some time without fish to be fully eradicated).

An actual article about it:
ATJ's Marine Aquarium Site - Reference - Three Day Transfer Method

A thread from a different forum with specific questions and answers about tank transfer (page 2 specifically has lots of helpful info):
Cryptocaryon Irritans - tank transfer method - Reef Central Online Community

Someone also mentions using just one heater and giving it a 30 min bleach bath, followed by a very thorough rinsing, and using it in both tanks. The same could apply for a powerhead, or they also mentioned using just an airline weighted down with a rock (that they then chucked) rather than a powerhead or airstone. So that could save you some money. I have not actually had to treat a fish for ich, but have used this method as a quarantine / prophylactic treatment. When I did this, I used a 5g tank and a 5g bucket that I was transferring fish between, one with a small powerhead and one with a small HOB filter that I had laying around.

 

[Dan Steveo]

Awesome thanks =] I've been keeping my eyes open like a hawk would =] The fish are very clean and still eating no problem. The rate the tank is advancing now is crazy. the CYANO IS DYING!!! the rowaphos and de-nitrate combo seems to be killing off large lumps/portions of algae =] Im soo happy. the cyano is turning green/brown and isn't growing quickly like normal so i'm quite sure its dying.

The QT Tank is set up and has been running for 3 days, im planning on keeping the three of them in there with seachem cupramine as its not as deadly to fish apparently. Im going to put a nice big bit of liverock in there too and will be using it for copepod breeding when there's no fish in there..

I really appreciate your help you've been amazing.

Daniel

 

[CAPSLOCK]

No problem, glad I can help.

Do you mean you're putting LR in the QT tank to grow pods after the fish are done being treated? Because likely the copper used to treat the fish will linger in the tank and render the rock unable to produce pods again or go back into the main tank (copper will be hard/impossible to eradicate once it has been used with rocks/sand - the rock will absorb it and slowly leach it back out, thereby poisoning inverts in any tank it is put in).

You should be able to get a good supply of pods going in the main tank while the fish are being treated. If you don't have any pods in there yet, definitely take this opportunity to seed the tank with them now so they'll start to multiply.

 

[Dan Steveo]

I would have liverock in there while there are no treatments, seachem does however (apparently) not leech into anything as it is a water borne type of treatment. Not sure of its merit.. I may use only a small piece in there for treatments and then get more after for the copepods once i've run carbon through and through.

I've bought about 10 bags of copepods with about 200 in each if not more so im sure theres some in there.. I just cant see them and i have good eyes.... I do however see the blenny eating loads so im sure he's finding them.