fishless cycling won't work w/heavily planted tank
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Re: fishless cycling won't work w/heavily planted
Pretty much. Most planted tank enthusiasts agree that you should wait about a week to add fish. After that, you have the green light to add fish. Plants also act as a filter too...but some seem to have forgotten that. This applies to moderate to heavily planted tanks. One aponogenton won't work. I really don't "cycle" tanks when they are planted. I have never had problems.
Chuck's site is a good one. Everyone should have it bookmarked.
Pretty much. Most planted tank enthusiasts agree that you should wait about a week to add fish. After that, you have the green light to add fish. Plants also act as a filter too...but some seem to have forgotten that. This applies to moderate to heavily planted tanks. One aponogenton won't work. I really don't "cycle" tanks when they are planted. I have never had problems.
Chuck's site is a good one. Everyone should have it bookmarked.
Re: fishless cycling won't work w/heavily planted
Tis true Gnome for the simple fact the plants use up ammonia, nitrites and nitrates therefore competing with the bacteria. Well, guess who wins! Probably the plants. In early days where they did not have filters like today, plants were the filter and it was a fine balance between fish and plants. Therefore it is recommended that you cycle a tank first before introducing plants. This is only the case with moderate to heavy planted tanks. In lightly planted tanks this is not neccessary the case because there is less competetion for what I call 'the cycle nutrients'.
Tis true Gnome for the simple fact the plants use up ammonia, nitrites and nitrates therefore competing with the bacteria. Well, guess who wins! Probably the plants. In early days where they did not have filters like today, plants were the filter and it was a fine balance between fish and plants. Therefore it is recommended that you cycle a tank first before introducing plants. This is only the case with moderate to heavy planted tanks. In lightly planted tanks this is not neccessary the case because there is less competetion for what I call 'the cycle nutrients'.
Re: fishless cycling won't work w/heavily planted
I don't remember where it was exactly, but I read somewhere that it's not necessarily a good thing to have a huge number of bacteria, more than you'd need for your bioload. Apparently this was made in argument against fishless cycling, but that's beside the point 
I guess what I'm getting at is, if you cycle the tank first, then add plants that will be absorbing ammonia/nitrate anyway, wouldn't you have a whole bunch of bacteria starving to death?
I don't remember where it was exactly, but I read somewhere that it's not necessarily a good thing to have a huge number of bacteria, more than you'd need for your bioload. Apparently this was made in argument against fishless cycling, but that's beside the point
I guess what I'm getting at is, if you cycle the tank first, then add plants that will be absorbing ammonia/nitrate anyway, wouldn't you have a whole bunch of bacteria starving to death? 
Re: fishless cycling won't work w/heavily planted
I have to agree with Wonderwoman.. What would be the sense in cycling a tank.. then cramming a bunch of plants in there to just basically reverse the WHOLE cycling process you just waited for? if this is true.. the Plants would pretty much eliminate more of your Bacteria and you would end up in the same situation as if you would of just Crammed the plants in there from the start.. Not??
I have to agree with Wonderwoman.. What would be the sense in cycling a tank.. then cramming a bunch of plants in there to just basically reverse the WHOLE cycling process you just waited for? if this is true.. the Plants would pretty much eliminate more of your Bacteria and you would end up in the same situation as if you would of just Crammed the plants in there from the start.. Not??
Re: fishless cycling won't work w/heavily planted
Good points however imo Id rather build a larger bio filter than I need and have the unneccessary bacteria 'die' off later, shrinking down to the size that I do need. That way I will not have any problems with cycling at all and can add all the fish immediately that I want. Plus most people usually end up adding too many fish, feeding too much and not cleaning enough anyways.
The only concern I have ties in with the above in that how much ammonia/nitrite do actually the plants consume. What is a 'heavily' planted tank? If I add all the fish I want that my tank will allow, the plants may not be able to consume all the ammonia produced therefore starting a cycle. Why have the negative effects of cycling with fish? That would be my only reason to cycle first then add plants. Usually the plants to fish ratio is quite high meaning more plants than fish because 1 plant will not support 1 fish (depending on the fish). Of course this is something to experiment with!
Most hobbiests do not have that much experiance with plants either therefore I would not recommend to add plants immediately then fish. Of course if you do add plants (like the article mentions), make sure that the plants are thriving before adding fish! (Hmmmm, comes down to patience again which many 'beginners' do not have sometimes-talking from my own experience).
On the other hand, if you are now experienced with growing plants and keeping fish successfully, this is a way to go!
Question! Is there a negative side to having un-nesseccary bacteria 'die' off?
Good points however imo Id rather build a larger bio filter than I need and have the unneccessary bacteria 'die' off later, shrinking down to the size that I do need. That way I will not have any problems with cycling at all and can add all the fish immediately that I want. Plus most people usually end up adding too many fish, feeding too much and not cleaning enough anyways.
The only concern I have ties in with the above in that how much ammonia/nitrite do actually the plants consume. What is a 'heavily' planted tank? If I add all the fish I want that my tank will allow, the plants may not be able to consume all the ammonia produced therefore starting a cycle. Why have the negative effects of cycling with fish? That would be my only reason to cycle first then add plants. Usually the plants to fish ratio is quite high meaning more plants than fish because 1 plant will not support 1 fish (depending on the fish). Of course this is something to experiment with!
Most hobbiests do not have that much experiance with plants either therefore I would not recommend to add plants immediately then fish. Of course if you do add plants (like the article mentions), make sure that the plants are thriving before adding fish! (Hmmmm, comes down to patience again which many 'beginners' do not have sometimes-talking from my own experience).
On the other hand, if you are now experienced with growing plants and keeping fish successfully, this is a way to go!
Question! Is there a negative side to having un-nesseccary bacteria 'die' off?
Re: fishless cycling won't work w/heavily planted
From all my reading over the past few years, everytime someone asked about plants using nitrItes, the answer was No.
Ammonia, ammonium, and nitrAtes yes.
My source I can not think of at this time. I do know it was from someone who knows plants very well.
I will look into this.
From all my reading over the past few years, everytime someone asked about plants using nitrItes, the answer was No.
Ammonia, ammonium, and nitrAtes yes.
My source I can not think of at this time. I do know it was from someone who knows plants very well.
I will look into this.
Re: fishless cycling won't work w/heavily planted
"as plantbrain was saying before, the problem with fishless cycling is that the nitrites are not used up by the plants, but they can be used by algae. therefor you will get blooms..."
Quote from slipknottin
Plant brain is Tom Barr, his opinion I greatly respect.
Here is a link
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/html/Forum2/HTML/003195.html
"as plantbrain was saying before, the problem with fishless cycling is that the nitrites are not used up by the plants, but they can be used by algae. therefor you will get blooms..."
Quote from slipknottin
Plant brain is Tom Barr, his opinion I greatly respect.
Here is a link
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/html/Forum2/HTML/003195.html
Re: fishless cycling won't work w/heavily planted
[quote author=RedTurquoise link=board=freshwatergeneral&num=1034130837&start=0#9 date=10/09/02 at 08:51:42]
Interesting tidbit! I actually have not heard that plants do not consume nitrites!? If that is the case, then one would have to cycle anyways as he mentions would happen, planted or not planted.
[/quote]
yeah Red.... I think tanks will cycle anyway w/ or w/out plants....but w/ moderate or heavily planted tanks the cycling won't do much harm than the fish only tank...since it is nitrites that left for the nitrobacter which is not as harmful as ammonia. I guess if you have moderate/heavily planted tank you'd rather not have fully stock aquarium (1 fish/G) I think the best is to have 75% of it, maximum.
so..which one is better(healthier) to have planted tank or fish only tank? w/out considering the esthetics value......
[quote author=RedTurquoise link=board=freshwatergeneral&num=1034130837&start=0#9 date=10/09/02 at 08:51:42]
Interesting tidbit! I actually have not heard that plants do not consume nitrites!? If that is the case, then one would have to cycle anyways as he mentions would happen, planted or not planted.
[/quote]
yeah Red.... I think tanks will cycle anyway w/ or w/out plants....but w/ moderate or heavily planted tanks the cycling won't do much harm than the fish only tank...since it is nitrites that left for the nitrobacter which is not as harmful as ammonia. I guess if you have moderate/heavily planted tank you'd rather not have fully stock aquarium (1 fish/G) I think the best is to have 75% of it, maximum.
so..which one is better(healthier) to have planted tank or fish only tank? w/out considering the esthetics value......
Re: fishless cycling won't work w/heavily planted
I would tend to think that plants and fish is the better way to go since it is 'natural'. A whole lot natural than plastics. Some people I heard have made the experience of adding plants and the fish improving in color and more relaxed which I believe.
I would tend to think that plants and fish is the better way to go since it is 'natural'. A whole lot natural than plastics. Some people I heard have made the experience of adding plants and the fish improving in color and more relaxed which I believe.
Re: fishless cycling won't work w/heavily planted
I wonder if all that dead bacteria is bad. I don't know how much bacteria is really floating around in tank water anyway, harmful or not...I mean, our bodies house so many species, maybe it's not unreasonable to assume that fish do too...yet these aren't dead. :-/ would it be strange to assume that lots of dead bacteria in the water could lower water quality? haha thinking like this makes my head hurt *crazysmiley*
I wonder if all that dead bacteria is bad. I don't know how much bacteria is really floating around in tank water anyway, harmful or not...I mean, our bodies house so many species, maybe it's not unreasonable to assume that fish do too...yet these aren't dead. :-/ would it be strange to assume that lots of dead bacteria in the water could lower water quality? haha thinking like this makes my head hurt *crazysmiley*
Re: fishless cycling won't work w/heavily planted
Plantbrain (Tom Barr) is highly regarded in the planted tank community. If it were not for his dedicated research and valuable input, plant enthusiasts would not be as well off. I give a huge thumbs up to this guy, as he has helped me the most in my success with planted tanks.
In my own research, I have nothing but good things to say about planted tanks. I will not consider a new aquarium unless it is planted. Having said that, it is IMPERATIVE that a new tank be set up with plants (as many as possible) before fish are added. Everyone that knows "the secret" of plants will tell you the same thing, including Takashi Amano. Try this instead of those chemicals everyone feels they need to use. The bacterial colonies will still develop and remain in equilibrium. Excess will be adjusted accordingly and naturally.
Furthermore, my fish absolutely LOVE my plants. They seem more at home, and my lone Angelfish has become incredibly beautiful since I moved her to my new 100G planted tank. A gourami I've been keeping for a friend has shown noticeable improvement as my plants have grown in. My loaches (all 9)never run as I walk up anymore; there is so much ground cover, they feel secure now.
Plantbrain (Tom Barr) is highly regarded in the planted tank community. If it were not for his dedicated research and valuable input, plant enthusiasts would not be as well off. I give a huge thumbs up to this guy, as he has helped me the most in my success with planted tanks.
In my own research, I have nothing but good things to say about planted tanks. I will not consider a new aquarium unless it is planted. Having said that, it is IMPERATIVE that a new tank be set up with plants (as many as possible) before fish are added. Everyone that knows "the secret" of plants will tell you the same thing, including Takashi Amano. Try this instead of those chemicals everyone feels they need to use. The bacterial colonies will still develop and remain in equilibrium. Excess will be adjusted accordingly and naturally.
Furthermore, my fish absolutely LOVE my plants. They seem more at home, and my lone Angelfish has become incredibly beautiful since I moved her to my new 100G planted tank. A gourami I've been keeping for a friend has shown noticeable improvement as my plants have grown in. My loaches (all 9)never run as I walk up anymore; there is so much ground cover, they feel secure now.
Re: fishless cycling won't work w/heavily planted
So I guess the summary is if you have successfully got your plants growing BEFORE you add any fish, and as long as you add them at a sensible rate, cycling is just a bit of a waste. If you overstock relative to a number of plants then you'll pregressively develop a larger bacterial 'culture', but all should remain in equilibrium
So I guess the summary is if you have successfully got your plants growing BEFORE you add any fish, and as long as you add them at a sensible rate, cycling is just a bit of a waste. If you overstock relative to a number of plants then you'll pregressively develop a larger bacterial 'culture', but all should remain in equilibrium
Re: fishless cycling won't work w/heavily planted
Wonderwomen,
I dont think it to be neccessarily a bad thing that dead bacteria is floating around. It probably gets consumed or vacuumed up in the next water change.
What Avalon says is true! I like the word "equilibrium" as that best describes what happens. As for the not cycling bit, well, I think that considering that nitrites do not get consumed by plants, it would be neccessary to cycle first! Nitrites are not as harmful as ammonia at the same level however high nitrites will cause physical damage to your fish. I dont really think that it will harm anything if one does cycle first. A lot of people do not want to cycle because they have to wait 6 weeks or so. I call it trying to take a short cut that will not work.
So in conclusion as I understand it, introducing plants/fish to a cycled tank is the best taking into consideration that plants do not use nitrites.
Wonderwomen,
I dont think it to be neccessarily a bad thing that dead bacteria is floating around. It probably gets consumed or vacuumed up in the next water change.
What Avalon says is true! I like the word "equilibrium" as that best describes what happens. As for the not cycling bit, well, I think that considering that nitrites do not get consumed by plants, it would be neccessary to cycle first! Nitrites are not as harmful as ammonia at the same level however high nitrites will cause physical damage to your fish. I dont really think that it will harm anything if one does cycle first. A lot of people do not want to cycle because they have to wait 6 weeks or so. I call it trying to take a short cut that will not work.
So in conclusion as I understand it, introducing plants/fish to a cycled tank is the best taking into consideration that plants do not use nitrites.
Re: fishless cycling won't work w/heavily planted
so....what about fishless cycling, after planting??? if ammonia/nitrates is how plants get their nitrogen, which is oh-so-necessary for them to grow well in combination with high lighting and CO2 and whatnot, and the plants are in the tank with minimal fertilization to prevent algae... *twirlysmiley* maybe fishless cycling would help the plants, and also help with the patience issue? (i'd rather have a tank of plants than an empty tank w/ filter and heater) and maybe you'd get a closer number of bacteria to what you'd need, since the plants would be in place when you add fish anyway? just a thought 8)
so....what about fishless cycling, after planting??? if ammonia/nitrates is how plants get their nitrogen, which is oh-so-necessary for them to grow well in combination with high lighting and CO2 and whatnot, and the plants are in the tank with minimal fertilization to prevent algae... *twirlysmiley* maybe fishless cycling would help the plants, and also help with the patience issue? (i'd rather have a tank of plants than an empty tank w/ filter and heater) and maybe you'd get a closer number of bacteria to what you'd need, since the plants would be in place when you add fish anyway? just a thought 8)
Re: fishless cycling won't work w/heavily planted
And a good point is made by WonderWoman.
I would think that with the massive doses of ammonia we seed with when fishless cycling, there is more than enough left over after the plants get their share for the biobugs to happily find a home in the filter(s).
The nitrite spike would be lessened as the plants use SOME of the ammonia, but it will happen nonetheless.
I wonder though, with the plants getting such a good dose of ammonia, and literally no nitrates in a cycling tank, that maybe nitrates will have to be added to keep the plants growing and using ammonia. If that's the case, then the only way to really tell if the tank is cycled would be to test NITRITES, not nitrates and nitrates.
Interesting, some food for thought on a "sick day" at home for me.
And a good point is made by WonderWoman.
I would think that with the massive doses of ammonia we seed with when fishless cycling, there is more than enough left over after the plants get their share for the biobugs to happily find a home in the filter(s).
The nitrite spike would be lessened as the plants use SOME of the ammonia, but it will happen nonetheless.
I wonder though, with the plants getting such a good dose of ammonia, and literally no nitrates in a cycling tank, that maybe nitrates will have to be added to keep the plants growing and using ammonia. If that's the case, then the only way to really tell if the tank is cycled would be to test NITRITES, not nitrates and nitrates.
Interesting, some food for thought on a "sick day" at home for me.
Re: fishless cycling won't work w/heavily planted
Agree, good point however my concern is how much ammonia is being used my plants and how much used by the bio! I guess one could just massivly dose until nitrites spike however there is a point of too much ammonia thus killing your plants. This is something that is worth trying wonderwoman! Fishless plus plants although the cycling period will not be shortened much because the nitrite stage is the longest.
I believe that ammonia will be used up before nitrates. Plants consume ammonia easier than nitrates therefore adding nitrates may not be that benifical.
Agree, good point however my concern is how much ammonia is being used my plants and how much used by the bio! I guess one could just massivly dose until nitrites spike however there is a point of too much ammonia thus killing your plants. This is something that is worth trying wonderwoman! Fishless plus plants although the cycling period will not be shortened much because the nitrite stage is the longest.
I believe that ammonia will be used up before nitrates. Plants consume ammonia easier than nitrates therefore adding nitrates may not be that benifical.