Goldfish with Septicemia

[mshill90]

I have 2 goldfish. They are regular goldfish bought from a pet store over a year ago. They are 2 inches in length.

They have been living in a 5 gallon fish tank for all of their life (since I have had them), and I had been thinking for a super long time that they needed more swim room. The 5 gallon set up was using a carbon filter, and everything worked fine. They were happy.

I recently just got a 30 gallon fish tank. It has 3 carbon filters, and the hood with the light.

I let the tank cycle for a week. I made sure the water in the new tank was the same temp as the old tank. I checked the PH balance, the nitrate balance etc... It was all new water, except I put a gallon of the old water in it for the bacteria etc...

After letting the fish in a bag with their old water into the new like the pet stores tell you, I put them in.

They were happy and fine. Now, 4 days later I couldn't find one of my fish. He was laying on the bottom and not looking well at all, but I could not find any marks, ick etc on him... But then I looked at the other goldfish and he is having blood streaking in his fins.

I called the pet store and was told it is Septicemia. They are both laying on the bottom of the tank.

The meds at the pet store are $20 for this, and I will have to buy 2 boxes of it. I know it sounds cruel, but 2 new fish are cheaper in the end.

Was wondering if there was anything I could do to help them?

Would setting the old tank up and putting them in there help since I have not yet emptied that tank?

 

[misterking]

I see no reason why your fish would get blood poisoning in all honesty. That usually enters through an open wound which becomes infected, just like in humans. I would here seriously doubt the intentions of your salesman who might just be trying to rid you of a fair bit of money.

Most probable explanation to me is an ammonia spike. Simply adding a bit of old water will not add a sufficient ammount of bacteria to begin a cycle, this generally colonises on hard media such as rocks, gravel and filter pads. Also, your tank will not cycle in a week. 3 ingredients for a decent cycle are a test kit (I reccommend API testkits), additive-free ammonia and PATIENCE. I hate to say it but you might have been better leaving them in the 5g for a few weeks while you properly cycled. It might surprise you that two small fish would cause such an ammonia spike so quickly but they have large bioloads, i.e they pump out a lot of crud into the water.

My advice is, these fish to me sound beyond saving. Buy an API master test kit that tests pH, ammonia, nitrates and nitrites, buy a bottle of additive-free ammonia, and start again. Read up on cycling your tank properly and make sure it's cycled before adding any fish.

 

[homebunnyj]

It's ammonia poisoning. Do a biiiiiiiig water change, like 50-75%, matching the temp and using dechlorinator, right away. This will relieve your fish and allow them a chance to recover.

Get the test kit. Don't cycle fishlessly IMHO at this point. Their 5g is no longer cycled after their being out for several days, so they would suffer more in there as their waste would be much more concentrated. If you can't get the test kit right away, have the fish store test your water and write down the results -- numbers, not "fine" or "bad".

 

[mshill90]

For the 50-75% water change, am I putting all fresh water into this because I don't see how that would work, noting that the water I have in there is fresh. Or should I put more water from the other tank in?

As far as putting them back into the 5 gallon... it is still cycling, just with no fish. I did not take it down or anything.

If these fish die, what do I have to do to ensure this does not happen to the next fish that I get? Because I would like to get a small koi, and I know they are just larger versions of a goldfish pretty much.

I have had goldfish for the last 15 years, and I have never had an issue like this before, and I have done small to large tank changes like this before.

I do notice that they are not constipated as they are pooping, and they are eating better than they have before... There are spurts where they are normal acting, and then it seems like they get tired.

I don't think they are too late from saving, as they seem to be strong little fish, so I want to save them. I have saved tons of dogs on my own, I should be able to save a pair of common fish. -sigh-

 

[homebunnyj]

You don't have a good understanding of cycling yet. Cycling means establishing a healthy colony of nitrifying bacteria that quickly break down the fish waste into less harmful substances. If you remove fish from a tank, after a few hours (less than a day?) the bacteria die of starvation. So, just because you leave the tank running doesn't prevent the bacteria starving to death. So your old tank is not 'cycling' now. It was cycled and has become uncycled.

The 'fresh' water you have in your (uncycled) tank is filled with fish pee. Your fish are swimming in sewage. Now do you see how changing out the water for clean water will help? If you want to save them, give them clean water. They are dying from aspirating the ammonia in their pee.



Koi need to live in ponds. They grow quickly and are very messy. They also need a lot of swimming room. For a 1ft koi you'd need a 100gal tank. People have baby koi in tanks, but they grow quickly and are then put into a pond... or very large tanks. Do you have somewhere to put them when they outgrow the tank?

If these fish die, study up on fishless cycling. This is a method of cultivating the necessary beneficial bacteria without fish having to live in sewage. It takes time, but is worth it.

 

[misterking]

Koi should never be kept in tanks, they do not stay "small".

Some types grow up to 3ft in length. They're not "larger versions of goldffsh", they're a completely different species, eat more, waste more, grow far larger and aren't as hardy as goldfish. On top of this, a startled koi swims fast enough to break the glass of most tanks.

Koi should never, in my opinion, be kept in anything smaller than a HEAVILY FILTERED 5000g pond of at least 4ft depth.

An Indian takeaway near me has a 3ft tank with a 12inch koi and 3 goldfish in. The koi has visibly suffered for this, with a horribly crooked spine, faded colours and wasted muscle, and has great difficulty swimming.

On the topic of goldfish, they're also a type of carp which can (and do, in good conditions) reach a foot in length and live for up to 20 years. In a 30 gallon, two standard common goldfish is IMO too much. A couple of the fancy varieties will do much better, they typically reach half the length of normal goldfish.

 

[mshill90]

Well, after doing everything that you guys didn't tell me to do, my fish are better and back to normal.

I took the remaining water from the older tank and poured that in, as well as placing the filter from the 5 gal and put it on the 30 gallon. I left the old filter on as well for bacteria. Seems like that helped.

What's funny is that you guys said that "IMO 2 goldfish in a 30 gal tank is too much." I had these fish in a 5 gallon tank for over a year, and they did fine. But 30 gallons is not enough when even my vet (exotic vet specialist) told me that it's 1 gallon per inch of fish...

I know someone with a 75 gallon, and he's got rocks, plants, and very large goldfish species, and he has had them for years with no problems at all. I am not going to have a 30 gal tank with 2 goldfish in it. That's a complete waste.

As far as the koi go, they are carp species, in which the goldfish are as well. There in not much to owning koi. They koi are 4 inches and will be in the tank while the pond sets up. We just got a pond today, and it is big enough for 4 baby koi. I have spoken to the person we are getting the koi from as he is a koi breeder hobbyist, and I wanted to make sure they would do well.

5,000 gallons for a koi. haha. you're ridiculous. *thumbsups

Thread can be closed now.

 

[misterking]

Well, after doing everything that you guys didn't tell me to do, my fish are better and back to normal.

I took the remaining water from the older tank and poured that in, as well as placing the filter from the 5 gal and put it on the 30 gallon. I left the old filter on as well for bacteria. Seems like that helped.

What's funny is that you guys said that "IMO 2 goldfish in a 30 gal tank is too much." I had these fish in a 5 gallon tank for over a year, and they did fine. But 30 gallons is not enough when even my vet (exotic vet specialist) told me that it's 1 gallon per inch of fish...

I know someone with a 75 gallon, and he's got rocks, plants, and very large goldfish species, and he has had them for years with no problems at all. I am not going to have a 30 gal tank with 2 goldfish in it. That's a complete waste.

As far as the koi go, they are carp species, in which the goldfish are as well. There in not much to owning koi. They koi are 4 inches and will be in the tank while the pond sets up. We just got a pond today, and it is big enough for 4 baby koi. I have spoken to the person we are getting the koi from as he is a koi breeder hobbyist, and I wanted to make sure they would do well.

5,000 gallons for a koi. haha. you're ridiculous. *thumbsups

Thread can be closed now.

Well there's no need to be rude, but I'm glad your fish are better. Putting the already established filter in the 30 is a good call as it will have helped convert the ammonia quicker.

"Carp" isn't a species. Carp is a generic term for a group of fish which have certain characteristic. Goldfish are Carrassius auratus, koi Cyprinus carpio - completely different species and completely different genus. Not at all the same fish or even similar and it's ignorant to consider them that.

"1 inch of fish per gallon" is actually only applicable to small, slim-bodied fish with a small bioload. Goldfish do not fit into that category and it's pretty widely accepted to be 20 gallons for each goldfish. 5000 gallons allows for a large group of koi, in which they'd be happier and more likely to surface swim and feed there.

The 4 inch koi will be fine until the pond is set up as long as this doesn't take too long, they grow very fast while well cared for. What you suggested was long-term housing of koi which isn't appropriate in any tank.

You clearly do not understand the potential size of your fish, so I suggest you research both fishkeeping and the fish you intend on keeping properly before you buy and get annoyed with people on here, and form your knowledge on fact rather than opinions from people without experience. We're only trying to help you in the long-term and right now you seem to be only thinking of the short-term. If you knew about properly cycling a tank this wouldn't have happened in the first place.

Anyway good luck with your fish.