Help/Advice 4 Newb

[spikekillifish]

I am starting a saltwater tank for the first time in my life. I am currently a collector of native freshwater fish and have been in that hobby for over 20 years. My first set up is a small 20 Gallon with a pure silica masonry sand substrate sprinkled with ancient fossilized corals(taken from a cycled brackish tank). I am now running an undergravel filter combined with an AquaClear 200. I double layered standard fiberglass window screen before I put down the sand and coral rock. I am cycling the tank with 4 Dwarf Sole (1"-2" in size). My salinity levels are now 1.012 and I will be increasing it gradually till I reach 1.023(to acclimate the sole). I am using Florida wellwater with a PH of 8.0 combined with "instant ocean". I have also applied for my Florida Saltwater Products License (SPL) and am going to begin collecting Florida natives like I do with freshwater. I am particularly fond of gobies, blennies, oddball types, and smaller schooling fish. I am looking forward to this new endeavor and any help, suggestions, etc.. is greatly appreciated. I am starting out with this small tank but plan on building a custom 100G. tank soon to be dedicated to saltwater species.

I have a quick question.

Will my current filtration system bring me enough beneficial bacteria? I plan on keeping the bioload of this tank on the low side - only small numbers of little fish.

 

[wayne at home]

Theoretically yes, but UG's are a major pain in the a**e, and I don't see one working so well underneath masonry sand. I am not sure the brackish water bacteria will all survive into saltwater, in fact I'm sure they wont. What temperature range are you talking about?
Think about the stocking levels for this - those 4 small fish may already be the limit of the bioload.

 

[spikekillifish]

I only put the UG in there because I was talked into it by an oldtimer. I am going to shut it down in about 2 months and leave it in there. By this time it will mostly be full of sand and a large bacterial colony should have developed. I am going to add 5-10 lbs of LR ASAP and get a 15W 50/50 actinic bulb for the hood. This tank is going to be mainly used as a temporary "holding" tank for small fish and other odd native caught marine life. I am right now at the max bioload of 4". The Dwarf Sole are out as soon as I get the tank cycled. My sand bed ranges from 2"- 4" deep. I was told that the sand is great for developing benificial bacterial colonies.

What temp range is needed to keep LR and corals?

 

[toodles]

If you are collecting Florida natives, then you need to go slightly cooler than normal tropical reef tanks. I would suggest in the lower 70's to be a good target range. Even though our waters do get in the higher and lower temps, that's a good middle ground.

The UG is not the way I would do this. If you were going for a plenum, then having oxygen underneath the plates defeats the purpose of having one, and using this as a regular UG is debatable as the sand will be easily clogged, and God knows what will happen when you shut the thing off. Could crash the whole system.

Not so sure about masonry sand.....not sure what else could be in there....contaminates????

Another thought (and I hate to be such a downer but there it is), it's about your well water. Has it been tested recently? Lot's of wells have very hard water high in minerals, etc.....or is this off an aquafier (sp?) ?

 

[spikekillifish]

Consider the UG gone. The wellwater is treated through an airator and is high in mineral content. Can I treat with a conditioner before adding it to the tank? That is what I have been doing with my FW tanks. The sand is free of contaminates that is why the masons use it.

 

[BrianH]

As far as the fish go, IMHO you will have to research each fish you catch. You will probably catch fish with different temperature requirements due to migration during the seasons.
I'm not sure where in Florida your located, but for live rock you can try Gulf-View .
i believe they are located in the Tampa area. They sell aquacultured live rock from the caribbean. Dale, the owner, may even be able to help you out with your local tank set up.

Brian

 

[spikekillifish]

Thanks Brian. I am in Naples and will be collecting from the Gulf. I am am going to start small and slow. I am only going to keep marine life that can be kept in captivity. I am looking to have an average temp of 75F. Any suggestions on what live rock will work for me? I may want to do a small reef set up, but am not sure yet.
I took a look at the site you posted and noticed they had some nice specimens that are as close to local as I can get without being illegal.

 

[BrianH]

Are you asking about which live rock (coraline or deco) I recommend from gulf-view? I bought a shipment of the coraline. I'm very happy with it. It comes with tons of life, I even got a green open brain on one piece.
Dale, the owner dives for the merchandise you see on the site. If you go there to buy some rock tell him what you plan to do for your tank and he may have some suggestions. He also probably knows all of the collection laws you will have to abide by.
If you have an extra tank (a 10 gal would do) you might be able to get a mantis shrimp from either the rock or buy one out right from Dale. IMHo they're pretty cool little creatures.

 

[spikekillifish]

The UG is gone and I moved the tank over to my studio and placed it right on my desk next to my computer monitor. Tomorrow I am going to my LFS to look over some LR. If I can't get what I want I think I will get some from Gulf View.

I placed an airstone under some of the ancient coral rock. Are airstones OK in a reef set up or should I get rid of that as well?

Will I need another power head opposite my Aqua Clear to maintain an adequate current? The airstone seemed to eliminate any dead spots.

I also heard that some people remove the filter media on the ACs to get even more current. Should I do the same?

I am leaning more towards doing the nano thing. I added a bit more sand today and I have at least 3 inches worth all through the tank. This masonry sand is very clean and great looking but expensive for sand.

 

[spikekillifish]

$$$$$$ - no wonder I never took up SW. Anyways I shelled out for a 36W. 10,000K combo bulb with fixture and combined it with my existing 15W. light, giving me 51W of total light to start. I will bring it up to just under 80W (72W) before I add any corals (at least 3 months down the road). My LFS owner was a bit rude and skeptical about the DSB method. He claims they all crash when the sand becomes too compacted and recommended I go with a small protien skimmer 6 months down the road. I removed the airstone and placed a PH like I said I would. My salinity levels are now up to 1.023 and the Dwarf Sole are doing great. I looked at some live rock and he recommended Fiji rock @ $4.99 a lb. He claims the Gulf-View stuff has too much phosphates in it as well as does the Caribian LR he gets. He did have some nice cured Fiji pieces for me, one being a nice 3.6 lbs. I think I am going to put it in my tank tomorrow. I also treated the tank with a phosphate remover yesterday.

So how am I doing so far?

 

[BrianH]

Mosy LFS's are against the DSB method. It seems as if they either don't want to learn new techniques or want to make money selling you crushed coral. He also isn't going to suggest gulf-view because he'll lose money if you buy your rock there. I've never heard anyone (and I've communicated with many people regarding caribbean rock) say that the caribbean rock contains phosphates. Anyway $4.99 per lb is a good price for cured fifi rock but does it have any coraline algae on it?
As for the DSB,, yes they can become compacted, thats why you need to add critters to stir the sand. Some suggestions are; nassirus snails, bristle worms, hermit crabs, fighting conch, serpent star, cucumbers etc. These critters will also keep your tank clean and healthy by eating the leftover detritus.
If you plan on making this a reef, I would definitely get a protein skimmer. Your best option would probably be a Aqua C Remora or cpr bak pak. If you want something a little cheaper try a red sea prizm.
If your looking to buy dry goods for a decent price, try ordering online. One of my favorite places is BigAlsonline.com.

Brian

 

[spikekillifish]

Thanks again Brian.

I did some further research and decided to upgrade my lighting first. I am going to get an AquaLight 2x65W. fixture. Saw em @ hellolights.com for $131 with bulbs. I mentoned the bottem critter stuff to turn up the sand and thats when he became silent and started helping other customers. The Fiji rock I looked at was full of purple stuff. How vital is a protein skimmer if I do bi-weekly water changes? Some reefers said I might not need one.

 

[BrianH]

Good choice with hellolights, they have pretty good prices. With that light setup you will be able to support all but the most light demanding sps, such as acropora. Some people even report having success with acropora with similar lighting to what you plan on purchasing.
IMHO protein skimmers are a necessary piece of equipment for a beginner's reef tank. Especially if you don't have a refugium. Most successful skimmerless tanks have a decent sized refugium with macro algae or mangrove trees for nutrient export.
There are a bunch of skimmerless reefers over at aqualink.com if you want some more info on going skimmerless.

 

[spikekillifish]

More $$$$$$, looks like I am getting a protein skimmer.
I went to BAsonline to check some out. I want the smallest one that can hang behind my tank. I will keep looking through the web.

 

[BrianH]

If you have the cash try the aqua c remora or the cpr bak pak. If not, I would suggest the red sea prizm. The aqua C is pretty much known as the best HOT skimmer on the market, but the bak pak is probably just as good for a tank your size.
Try looking on ebay. You can get some good deals there sometimes.

Brian

 

[spikekillifish]

I was on E-bay and found some neat skimmers.

Danner Skilter 400 skimmer and filter.


Danner Skilter 250 skimmer and filter

I know they are cheap but do you thing they can do the job? I am definately leaning towards the 250 I think it will work well for my setup. Heck the guy did not get a patent for nothing. It will save me lots of $$$$$$

They received good reviews:

Review

Review

 

[spikekillifish]

Here is more.

Danner Skilter

I am sold. It will fit nicely for my set up (on my desk w/my computer) and is cheap enough to get lots of replacement filter media.

 

[catfishmike]

just a word of advice if you are really interested in a skillter keep this in mind parst and replacement carts. are hard to find often,and i have not heard many good things about them.so if you do choose to get this filter double up for added protection.the one cool thing is you can just pull out the filter floss and replace it with cut to size floss or filter pads that you should be able to get at any lfs.

 

[spikekillifish]

I plan on ordering at least 12 replacement cartridges
and and maybe an extra impeller. I have heard they work quite well and utilize the proven venturi-type skimmer system.

A well known SW aquarist at Aquareview.com uses them on all his hospital tanks. I simply don't have the $$$$ to get anything else. The bottom line is this sytem will work well with my setup. I heard they are easy to clean as well. My motto is if you take care of something it will last a long time. I still have a 1983 Yamaha Turbo Motorcycle with 80,000 miles on it and I ride it everyday.

I also have 2 U.S. patents and can recognize a good product when I see one. The replacement parts should be available for at least 5 years as tooling for these items for manufacture is expensive and I don't think Danner is going to change this design for awhile. Just because it costs much less than other skimmers doesn't mean it won't work. Besides most the other skimmers I looked at IMO where overkill, made for much larger tanks than a 20G.

 

[catfishmike]

oh i'm not saying there horrible,i've even toyed with the idea of getting one for my freshwater tank.i figured you might like to get a second opinion thats all.i was working for a lfs for a while and the salt crowd just wasn't too enthsiasitc about them,but for the price you can't beat that.i like the carts. i have used them in my emperor 400 as replacements.