Help !!

[fishdog]

Comments: I have major problems.  I have a 250 Fresh water gal tank.  I have not had any problems for 5 or so years. I bought some bad fish and this has destoryed my tank.  ??? ??? ???I don't know what type of crap those fish put into my tank, but, I have tried everything. I don't know what I have but it is eating up everything.  My water is fine.  I thought I might have a parosite, so I treated with Clout.  I still have somthing going on.  I did everything I was supposed to do.  I did a 50% water change after the treatment as directed.  I have a lot of things floating in my tank.  I see a
see through looking fungus type thing floating, on rocks, kinda like a worm, but I don't think it is.  My fish are staying at the bottom, and are twiching, I have treated them, what is going on???? Please help asap.  Ilove my fish, and I have lost almost all of them.  I only have a few swimmers and the rest are bottom feeders, they act as thought they are in
pain, :-[ and swim from side to side and they also, are not eating now. Today they did eat a little.  I am not over feeding trust me I know all about that.  I had not tried to feed them for several days when I first noticed they were not wanting to eat, that will only make matters worse.
>
> HELP HELP HELP. ??? 8) sunny Fla
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[Matt Nace]

Anything else you can tell us.

What fish are in the tank, and what fish were added?

You say they are twitching.
Are they different looking in color than normal?

Are they rubbing against the gravel?

Do you see any blotches, grayness, gills look different, fins torn?

Is their poop white?
Worms comming out of the anus?
Eyes cloudy or dark?
Scale protruding?
Dots on their fins or skin, white or gold or yellow?
Is the head region to the dorsal fin blueish or grayish with any frayed skin or scales?

Are any fish gasping for air ?

You may need to try an anti-biotic or general cure if unsure.

Is there any fish not effected?

That is a massive tank to treat as well, you really need to invest in a 10 gallon quarenteen tank, where you would have caught it right away, and not got it in your main one.

 

[colesea]

Sometimes one treatment application of a medicine isn't always going to work, you might have to treat for many weeks until all sign of disease are gone. Being able to narrow down the clinical signs (the questions Matt Nace are asking) will help purchase a medication that can target the specific disease. I know clout is pretty strong stuff, but it has to be used repeatedly over many weeks for it to be effective. Especially in the large volume of water you have!

Reintroducing the disease could also be a factor. Parasites and other diseases love to grow in filter media, on nets and equipment, and decor.  Soaking all equipment and nets in a 10% bleach solution will help eliminate the reintroduction of the disease. Make sure you rinse everything in dechlorinated water before putting it in your tank.

Worst come to worst, you move all your fish and plants into q-tanks (the smallest volume of water possible to house your fish comfortably, I wouldn't put a 3 foot bala into a 10 gallon tank<G&gt, treat the fish with a broad-spectrum medication, let the plants soak (usually aerated plastic garbage cans can store plants), and then run your main tank with a 10% bleach solution, stirring the gravel every day, for at least two to three days. Then drain it and start over, allowing nothing to return to the tank until it has been disinfected with bleach. That will get rid of any diseases lingering in your system.
~~Colesea

 

[fishdog]

Re: Help !! I am going to answer questions

Anything else you can tell us.

What fish are in the tank, and what fish were added? ANGLES FROM A PET STORE I HAD NEVER PURCHASED FROM THE TROUBLE STARTED THEN :'(

You say they are twitching.
Are they different looking in color than normal? WHEN I KNOW THEY ARE SICK THEY LOOK PAIL.

Are they rubbing against the gravel? YES YES YES, THE ANGLES DID THAT ALOT BEFORE THEY DIED

Do you see any blotches, grayness, gills look different, fins torn? NOT REALLY


Is their poop white?  YES CLEAR LIKE A WORM BUT DON'T KNOW IF IT IS A WORM
Worms comming out of the anus? DON'T REALLY KNOW
Eyes cloudy or dark? THEY SEEM TO BE WHEN THEY ARE GETTING SICK
Scale protruding? NOT REALLY
Dots on their fins or skin, white or gold or yellow? I HAVE NOTICED GOLD SPOTS
Is the head region to the dorsal fin blueish or grayish with any frayed skin or scales? I DON'T THINK SO

Are any fish gasping for air ? YES BUT NOT REALLY AT THE TOP BUT STAYING AT THE BOTTOM

You may need to try an anti-biotic or general cure if unsure.
I DO HAVE A 10 GAL AND TRIED THAT WITH THE BIG FISH, BUT IT WAS TO LATE AND THEY DIED
Is there any fish not effected? I STILL HAVE FISH LEFT BUT IT GOT ALL THE BIG FISH, AND I HAD SOME HUGE ANGLES I HAD THEM FOR YEARS AND YEARS :'(

That is a massive tank to treat as well, you really need to invest in a 10 gallon quarenteen tank, where you would have caught it right away, and not got it in your main one.

SO NOW THAT I HAVE ANSWERED SOME OF THE QUESTIONS WHAT SHOULD I DO.  THEY SEEM TO BE DOING BETTER BUT I DON'T HAVE MUCH LEFT.  A FEW BLACK NEONS A FEW SMALL TETRAS AND BOTTOM FEEDERS LARGE POCOTOMISES (DON'T KNOW HOW TO SPELL) I WOULD LOVE TO INCORPORATE SOME PICTURES HOW DO I DO THAT SO YOU CAN SEE THE TANK

I AM NOT YELLING JUST WANTED TO SHOW MY ANSWERS.

THANKS FOR YOUR HELP HOPE TO HERE BACK SOON.

LA/ FISHDOG

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[colesea]

Okay, well, here's my best guess based on the physical descriptions, but we're gonna need water chemistry values as well, just to rule them out. Medicines (espeically the massive doses involved for large tanks) can cause all sorts of water chemistry problems as well, offsetting the balance of a tank thus making a bad situation worst.

Velvet Disease (aka Gold Dust disease)
"Yellow-grey coating to the skin and fins.  Fish may scrape against rocks and show increased gill movements.  In advanced cases, the fish go off their food and lie motionless in the water; skin may peel away in strips.  Although this disease may be confused with other conditions, such as white spot, velvet-infected fish often look as if they have been sprinkled with gold dust - hence the alternative common name of 'gold dust disease.'"
--The Manual of Fish Health- TetraPress pg 158.

Matt, would you concur?

Occurrence of the disease (abbreviated)
"The parasite moves from fish to fish in the form of flagellated spores, which can live away from the fish for at least 24 hours, and probably much longer.  It is most often introduced with new fish and may then develop into a serious problem.  Heavy infestations on the gills may kill fish without causing any obvious signs of the disease.  Long-term control may be complicated if the parasite establishes itself within the internal organs of the fish, where it may escape treatment."
-The Manual of Fish Health- Tetra Press pg 158

Treatment and control (abbrievated)
"A proprietary brand of velvet remedy, white spot remedy or a broad-spectrum antiparasite treatment should affect a cure in freshwater fishes. Aquarium fish can be treated in situ, although badly affected fish and pond fish may be treated in isolation.
"The speed at which the infestation develops, and the severity of the problem which may ensue, highlights the importance of quarantine (and preventative course of, for example, coper treatment) for all new fish, especially tropical."
-The Manual of Fish Health- Tetra Press pg 161

Hope that is helpful *shrug*
~~Colesea

 

[fishdog]

Thank you so much for all your research, I thought you were mad at me for asking so many questions.  The copper thing is the same as the Clout or is the same type of med right?  Should I treat the tank with clout again? Or should I put the fish is a 10 gal break the whole tank down and then put them back in.  I would think this would kill them also.  Should I just keep treating and doing water changes.

Thanks again for your help, and don't be mad at me for asking so many questions.  *thumbsupsmiley*

 

[colesea]

I'm not mad

I don't know what the ingredients of clout are, but I think there is a copper sulfate base. You'll have to read the lable.

Coppersafe I know has copper in it, but copper dosing is tricky. Not enough, no effect. Too much, and you could hurt your fish, and ruin the possiblity for live plants and inverts in your tank forever.

If I were you I would take what fish I have left, put them in to small volume q-tanks with water from the large tank, treat them with meds for at least one month.

Then I would strip the large tank of all decor and bleach the heck out of it. Crank the temp on the tank way up (to about 86-90oF) and let it sit stripped bare and empty for the same amount of time as my fish are on meds.  This way you can in effect "starve" the parasite out of your tank (without the fishy host, the parasite bites dust, and the increased temp speeds up its life cycle to realistic time aka, one month).  You could also dose the stripped tank with meds if you wish, but nothing copper based.  Allowing the tank to remain stripped bare will help conserve your water, but it's going to screw your nitrogen cycle. You'll still have to restart "over again" and there is no garuntee that the disease is all gotten rid of.

Or you can just drain your tank and bleach the heck out of it. Then you know for sure you've gotten all the disease, but you'll still have to start all over.

As far as for your current fish. Try Maracide, clout, maroxy, or tripple sulf. I don't know if they will live or die, but they must be treated like patients in the intensive care burn ward.
~~Colesea

 

[Matt Nace]

It almost sounds like velvet.

You can kill off a lot of single celled organisms(velvet,costia,ick,Trichodina) with products that contain Trypaflavine.

I would remove the remaining fish as suggested to a q-tank if possable. Treat there.
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What would I do if I wasn't sure what was killing off my fish?
I would bleech the tank as well. I don't think 3 days is needed, as bleech will kill what it touches in minutes.

10% dilution would be 20 some gallons of bleech..holy crap that is not going to happen. I think 2 gallons would kill whats in there, run it for a day. The doecrations I would bleach seperate. I would also do the gravel seperate, as I could stir it easier, and rinse it easier.



What do you think cole?

 

[fishdog]

Holly cow is right I would have to remove the tank and to this outside?  Are you saying remove the fish and put in the 10 gal with the same water they are in, and then treat?  

Then take all water out of tank, and all plastic plant and rocks and huge piece of drift wood and put into bleach and then put bleach in the tank and let it sit with beach and then remove the bleach and then fill back up with water and then put the fish back in after a month of being in the 10 gal tank?  

I just want to make sure I understand.  I think I need another 10 gal tank to hold all the fish I have left.  I would say I have about 30 fish left.  

Or should I just try to treat the tank again, and see if that works first.  I could always take all the stuff out and leave the water and fish in the tank, and then treat.  I could put the stuff in bleach this way I got the pest off the rocks and plastic plants and then see how that goes.

Thanks you guys for all your help. *thumbsupsmiley*

Let me know what you think.  The tank cannot be removed with out about 5 guys to lift it, and it is so huge. ???  If I put bleach in, I would be afraid I could not get the bleach out of the tank completley, and would have to take the tank outside to remove everything, to do this is almost impossible.  The tank is very very big. ;D

Thanks

 

[Matt Nace]

Do you have a python or similar attachment for emptying the tank?

Tell you what, remove all the fish and let it run empty for a while. Maybe get some live plants or something while the fish are out.

Try to keep them out as long as possable, starving hopefully whatever is in the tank.


I, like I already said..would bleech it with the water in it.

 

[colesea]

I agree with Matt. Bleach.

The q-tank doesn't necessarily have to be 10 gallons. If you only have 30 some odd small fish, you could purchase one 30 or 40 gallon tank. Then when you are done treating your fish, you'll have another fish tank you could set up ;D. But splitting the fish between two tens will also work. The reason I suggest using water from your main tank in the q-tanks is because it is water that your fish are already acclimated too. If you put fish in new, fresh, uncycled water, not only is the disease a problem for them, but the whole reestablishment of the nitrogen cycle will stress them out further, making them sicker. Q-tanks need not be furnished, it is best to have a bare q-tank with nothing but a simple filter, heater, and maybe one platic plant or flower pot. No gravel. Gravel and other complicated decor will only give the parasite places to avoid medication.

If you have a python, or other method of siphoning the tank out, you need not move the whole thing from its current location. Pythons attach to most faucets, and acts like an outside garden hose. They can be purchased at any LFS, come in 25 or 50ft lengths, but can be connected to make longer. If you don't want a python, simply use those strong men for a bucket birgade. You would not need to remove the gravel either, just stir it up while it sits in the tank so that it comes into contact with the bleach solution.

Bleach is the -best- way to deal with this. It will kill everything, even viruses. I currently work in a lab that does lots of medical research and we use plain old household bleach as our disenfectant. To get rid of bleach, that is very simple. Add copious dechlorinator. There isn't a prescribed amount, I usually just really add a whole bottle. Novaqua, aquaplus, stress coat, all help remove bleach.  Sodium thiosulfate is the main ingrediant of dechlorinators, you can purchase the raw stuff from chemical supply companies as well. But one large bottle of comercial stuff should be more than enough for your tank.

You do have your work cut out for you, unfortunately. Whatever method is easiest for you is best.  The thing you have to consider is how not to reintroduce the disease into your tank from a lack of complete disinfecting. Also, in the future, I would suggest quaritine for all your new fish before the are introduced to the main population<G>. Good luck.
~~Colesea