High nitrates, new fish owner

[Imchardo]

2-1/2 weeks ago, my kids won 6 small feeder goldfish at a carnival. That afternoon we went to the pet store and bought a 10 gallon tank kit. It came with the tank, a hood and light, a filter, some tap water conditioner and some "Nutrafin Cycle" which, I gather, is supposed to accelerate the nitrogen cycle process and allow adding fish almost immediately. We also purchased some gravel and tank ornaments (a cave, a decorative head sculpture thingie, and a non-living plant).

I confess that I'm completely ignorant of fish care and, though I read the documentation that came with the tank thoroughly, I'm prepared to believe I may have made serious mistakes.

So anyways, I rinsed everything carefully with tap water, placed the gravel and ornaments in the tank, filled it up with water, added the water conditioner and Cycle, let it all cycle for about 3 hours, then dumped the fish in.

Things seemed good for a week but I went off to Las Vegas on the weekend and, in my absence, the fish were overfed. When I returned, the tank was badly murky. In the week and a half since, I've done 30% - 50% water changes every other day and we've reduced their food to one feeding a day, no more than they can eat in 2 minutes.

Now, two fish have died and the pet store tested my water and said nitrate levels were sky high (>100 ppm). They said other levels were ok. They were not much help when I asked how I could reduce my nitrate levels.

I'm posting here in the hope that someone here can help. I have a couple of thoughts. Could the excessive water changing be causing high nitrate levels? Also, I've yet to change the filter cartridges. They're probably full of old food from the overfeeding. Could the dirty filter be causing high nitrate levels?

What else could be the problem? I want to take good care of the fish but I'm afraid I could use a little help....

 

[OrangeCones]

Yikes! You have a mess on your hands. Just a few basics and I'll try to address your specific questions.

Goldfish are pooping machines. They produce far more waste than other fish of equal size.

You started with 6 goldfish? The initial goldfish needs a 20gallon tank, and each additional one needs 10 more minimum. To house 6, you would need a 70 gallon tank.

I'm not sure what you want to do at this point. You can try to keep the 4 healthy for a bit in the 10 gallon, but you will need at least a 50 gallon tank to keep them long-term. They can get a foot or more in length. Contrary to 'myth,' you can't just keep a fish in a small aquarium and it will 'stop growing' if its runs out of room. It will become stunted if it survives the cramped conditions and live a short, unhealthy life.

You will need a liquid test kit to monitor for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. The store said your nitrates were over 100. They should be <20.

They also said the other levels were 'ok.' I would find that impossible to believe with 4-6 goldfish in a 10gallon tank. The fact that they didn't help you or seem to know how to reduce nitrates in the tank indicates they are not very reliable. The only way to reduce nitrates to under 20 is to keep doing large water changes with dechlorinated water. If you change 50% of the water, in theory, you'd be at 1/2 of the starting point. But since you don't know what the real level is (over 100 could be 105 or 200 or more), there is no way to know how many large water changes you will need to do. I'd be tempted to take the fish out (put them in a clean bucket) and put all new water in, then return the fish.

Your test kit will also test for ammonia and nitrites. Those should read 0. If they register 1ppm, it is causing damage to the fish, and its time for more water changes.

The filter pad's instructions will tell you to replace it every month or so. They just want to sell you more filter pads. Replacing it like that will destroy what beneficial bacteria you have and cause all the readings to go sky high again. The best thing to do is to take the filter pad out of the filter and swish it around in the water you are removing during the water change. Under no circumstances rinse it in tap water. That would set you back to the start of the whole cycling process.

You need to establish the beneficial bacteria that will turn ammonia (fish waste) into nitrite, then to nitrate. If you have nitrate already in the tank, then the process has started for you. It may never complete the cycle (where ammonia and nitrite are zero) due to the huge bioload goldfish put out.

End result: either you need smaller fish that will fit the tank, or a much larger tank that will fit the goldfish. You might ask the local pet store if you can trade the goldfish in for smaller fish. Most smaller fish are tropical, so you will need a heater for them.

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[bassbonediva]

The water changes should be helping the nitrate levels. You actually don't need to completely change out your filter cartridge until it's so old that it's falling apart. The filter manufacturers tell you to change it once a month basically as a money-making ploy. The good bacteria which helps remove ammonia and nitrites from the water colonize on the filter media and the hard surfaces of the tank (i.e.-gravel, plants, decorations, etc). When you remove the filter cartridge that has all that good established bacteria on it and replace it with one that is new, you will send your tank into a mini-cycle and you'll be back to square one because the bacteria has to recolonize and in the meantime, your ammonia and nitrite levels will be unchecked. The most you should do with the filter cartridge until such time as it falls apart is rinse it in old tank water when you do your water changes.

That being said, four goldfish (of any size) in a 10gal tank is WAY too many. Goldfish are massive poop producers and I believe the rule of them for them is 20gals for the first goldfish, then 10gal per additional goldfish (I've also heard a flat 20gal per goldfish).

When you do your water changes, are you vacuuming the gravel to remove all the old food and waste? If you aren't, the food and waste is probably breaking down in your gravel and producing ammonia and your nitrates are soaring to keep up with it.

So, the very first thing I would do, were I you, I would go get myself a nice liquid test kit, such as API's liquid master test kit. That way you don't have to worry about the LFS giving you answers like "everything looks okay," you'll know exactly what your readings are and what you're looking at. Next, I would keep up with your 30-40% water changes until those nitrates go down. Ideally, your readings should be:

Ammonia-0ppm
Nitrites-0ppm
Nitrates-10-20ppm

I would also think about either rehoming the goldfish and getting smaller fish more suited to a 10gal set up, or upgrading the tank to something large enough to accomodate the goldfish (I think a 55gal would do nicely for four goldfish). You can many times get great deals off of Craigslist on big tanks.

If there's anything I've left out (and I'm sure there is), I'm sure someone will provide the information I've missed.

Woo-hoo for ninja'd posts, Orange!

 

[Imchardo]

Thanks to both OrangeCones and bassbonediva for their responses. I've already been on Craig's list looking for a larger tank and I've found a 55 gallon one close to me that I'll hopefully be able to have a look at this weekend. Anything special I should look for when buying a used tank?

I'll also take advantage of my lunch hour today to buy a liquid test kit from Amazon.

Honestly, I'm shocked at the water volume requirements for goldfish. I'd heard rules of thumb like "1 gallon of water for each inch of fish". Since my tiny little goldfish are only about 1-1/2" long each, I figured 10 gallons was ok.

But I'm enjoying my fish and I want to treat them well.

 

[achase]

I'm Kinda butting in on this topic.....but I do have a related question.

When you remove the filter cartridge that has all that good established bacteria on it and replace it with one that is new, you will send your tank into a mini-cycle and you'll be back to square one because the bacteria has to recolonize and in the meantime, your ammonia and nitrite levels will be unchecked. The most you should do with the filter cartridge until such time as it falls apart is rinse it in old tank water when you do your water changes.

Would apply to well established tanks as well? I know not to change the filter pad every month but thought that the substrate, decorations and tank itself keep the tank from going through a mini-cycle when the filter pad is replaced. I usually change my filter pad (on my established tank) when the water flow is effected. So basically I should stop doing this?!? Opps....you learn something new everyday!!

 

[bassbonediva]

Yes, achase, that applies ESPECIALLY to established tanks. If your water flow is effected greatly (to the point where you have barely a trickle coming out of your output), use your hand to clean off the pad while you have it in the bucket of old tank water. This will get the worst of the gunk off it. Then, float a new media pad in the tank (or stick it in the filter behind the old pad if there's room) and let it start collecting the good bacteria as well. Your decorations/gravel/plants do carry some of the good bacteria, but the majority is going to be on your filter media pad because that's a concentrated, dedicated place for it to establish.

Imchardo, the reason why goldfish need such a higher water volume than other fish is the fact that they produce SO much waste and they actually do get to be quite large as OrangeCones pointed out (up to 12" in some types). With most fish, you can go by the old 1" per gallon rule, but goldfish are definitely the exception.

When looking at a used tank, make sure that the sealant on the seams is not peeling, cracked or missing. This could indicate leaks. Water deposits and other dirtiness aren't that big of a deal, they usually come off with a mild vinegar and water solution (I clean all my tanks with vinegar and water regardless of them being new or used). Make sure there are no cracks in the glass. It will be easier to tell the tank's integrity if it's set up and full of water, but if it isn't, ask the people if they wouldn't mind filling it about halfway so you can check the seals (it doesn't take THAT long to drain...I think mine took about 45 minutes and it was all the way full...I just started my gravel vac on it and let it suck out the water).

 

[Newman]

the substrate does not hold most of the bacteria, the filter does. what you should do is place the new filter media in the water and let it float for a few weeks in your tank, then swap for the old filter cartridge/media

 

[lauraf]

the substrate does not hold most of the bacteria, the filter does. what you should do is place the new filter media in the water and let it float for a few weeks in your tank, then swap for the old filter cartridge/media

I'm glad you asked, achase! I've been putting a new filter in fresh from the package and soaked in old tank water. What did I know??? There haven't been any noticeable problems, but still.

 

[achase]

I'm glad I asked as well...learning how to better care for my fish as well as improving my fish keeping abilities is always good. Thanks Paige and Newman for explaining!!

Then, float a new media pad in the tank (or stick it in the filter behind the old pad if there's room)

From now on I will do this....fortunately I have enough room in my filter that I can add an extra pad!

 

[bassbonediva]

That's why I'm excited about having a canister filter now. I can keep several of my AquaTech 5-15 pads in the media baskets and they'll be constantly ready for use. That is, if I can get my AT 5-15 working again. It randomly died on me recently (and it's brand new...less than two months old).

 

[xarumitzu]

Out of curiosity, what about the Aquaclear filters that have the three stage replacement thing? By a happy mistake I forgot to buy new sponges and BioMax beads, so I've been rinsing them off in the old tank water and putting them back in; I do replace the carbon insert every few weeks, is this okay?

 

[bassbonediva]

I'm pretty sure that's okay. I'm not familiar with the AquaClears, but I know quite a few people on here use them and love them. I *think* the sponge is where most of the bacteria would colonize, so just rinsing that in old tank water when you do your water changes should be good (never rinse a filter cartridge or sponge in tap water).

 

[achase]

I can keep several of my AquaTech 5-15 pads in the media baskets

For a second I thought that you kept 5 - 15 different pads in your filter....lol! I thinking to myself that I only have room for one extra pad, Paige must have a huge filter. But then I figured out that you were referring to your filter type.

 

[bassbonediva]

rofl! Sorry...sometimes when I type fast (and I've had very little sleep), things come out kind of funny. My new canister filter (Cascade 1000) has three media baskets, so I can put in lots of extra media to have on hand.

 

[Imchardo]

Just thought I'd check back in and give an update.

I bought a test kit and found the nitrates were nowhere near what the pet shop said. They told me over 100ppm. I measured about 10ppm. I'm certain I conducted the test correctly and, by the way, it was by far the most complex chemical to test. At this point, I'm convinced the pet shop guy messed up.

I'm still looking for a bigger tank...anyone in the LA (that's Los Angeles, not Louisiana) area looking to get rid of a 55 gal or bigger tank on the cheap, let me know!

My 4 remaining tiny goldfish are very happy. They told me so...

 

[bassbonediva]

Yeah, you'll learn VERY quickly in this hobby that the "all-knowing" pet shop people really don't know all that much. I helped the girl in the aquatics section at Petsmart today sell a lady a bigger, nicer heater than she was originally going to buy because the girl that worked there knew very little about heaters other than what the box told her.

Glad to hear you got the test kit, though! Yeah, the nitrates are a pain to test, but oh well. It's so much easier than relying on the LFS often-faulty information!

 

[nanu156]

First, you are OVERFEEDING!!!!! Goldfish should be fed Goldfish food like every other/third day, food is the most poisonous thing you can put in your tank.

Second, I know your kids won the fish, and you like them, but making a trip to the pet-store for some plattys or other orange fish, will alleviate a ton of headache for you both today and in the future. If your kids are young or just don't pay much attn they may not notice the slight change in the fish's appearance, and 4 plattys in a 10g should be close to ok.

Keep changing the water, I try not to do 50% changes, I recommend 2x25% changes instead, one in the am one in the pm.

Goldfish will actually do ok with ammonia levels over 1ppm but it's not ideal.

you will find that the 55g is actually easier to maintain then the 10g.

 

[OrangeCones]

I agree that the goldfish in their TEMPORARY home of 10gallons should not be fed more than every other day. Its hard to do because they, like most fish, are ALWAYS acting like they haven't eaten in a month! Those I've cared for in the past acted the same the next time I walked into the room, even though they had been fed 10 minutes before.

However, I disagree that 1ppm ammonia is ok. I also do not believe there is anything wrong with doing large water changes, over 50%, all at once. Just be sure to match the temperature so you don't cause any shock. I've done it for many years with no problems. Most of your beneficial bacteria is on surfaces in your tank (gravel, driftwood, other deco, and the filter's media).

Just my 2cents.
OC