how to tell if live rock is healthy???
- Thread starter x69nova69x
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I don't know if there is any rule of thumb about how much live rock to have per gallon of tank, I think most people go around 1 to 2 pounds of rock per gallon of water. Remember, that rock will replace water, so your tank water volume will be smaller than the actual tank gallonage.
Uncurred live rock means, ah, "dead" rock. Uncurred means without all the beneficial critters already on it, steril, plain stone. Unless someone changed the definition of curred on me. This rock will seed itself through a normal "fishless" tank cycle as is explained in the fishless cycle article in the beginners forum on this site.
Curred or seeded live rock is just that, it has all the living organisms on it that help cycle a tank. There are two types of rock.
Cultured rock is from some already established source, usually another fish tank. All it usually comes with is pre-seeded beneficial bacteria. This is the rock you see in most sump systems at your LFS that they'll charge you an arm and a leg for. The problem with this type of rock is you don't know what the heck type of diseases it may also carry, since it is on the LFS system where they have all their fish, and who knows what sick fish have been in and out of their tanks. There are some places where they commercially "grow" live rock that is more likely to be parasite/disease free. Ordering it from a specality place like that will be pricey as well. Usually they'll try to throw in a token critter so you don't feel gyped.
Collected rock is usually rock strait from the wild, critters and all. Some wholesaler pays people to dive and pick up rocks off the bottom of the ocean, wrap it in newspaper, and ship it to you for an extortion. The neat thing about this live rock is you never know what type of critters are hitching a ride. Could be a crab, a brittle star, a sea cucumber, you name it I have found it in a chunk of rock. The bad thing is, you can also get nasties as well, a mantis shrimp or bristle worm, as well as parasites from the region where the rock was collected. Another negitive thing is that it is taken from the wild, and is an irreplacable part of the ecosystem there. Why would you want to do that?
So it truely is up to you what you feel is best for your tank and how much money you will spend. Plain, "dead" rock is a heck of a lot cheaper to cycle yourself. But "live" rock allows you to really place a moderate fish-load in practically the same day without waiting for the beneficial bacteria to grow on its own.
~~Colesea
Uncurred live rock means, ah, "dead" rock. Uncurred means without all the beneficial critters already on it, steril, plain stone. Unless someone changed the definition of curred on me. This rock will seed itself through a normal "fishless" tank cycle as is explained in the fishless cycle article in the beginners forum on this site.
Curred or seeded live rock is just that, it has all the living organisms on it that help cycle a tank. There are two types of rock.
Cultured rock is from some already established source, usually another fish tank. All it usually comes with is pre-seeded beneficial bacteria. This is the rock you see in most sump systems at your LFS that they'll charge you an arm and a leg for. The problem with this type of rock is you don't know what the heck type of diseases it may also carry, since it is on the LFS system where they have all their fish, and who knows what sick fish have been in and out of their tanks. There are some places where they commercially "grow" live rock that is more likely to be parasite/disease free. Ordering it from a specality place like that will be pricey as well. Usually they'll try to throw in a token critter so you don't feel gyped.
Collected rock is usually rock strait from the wild, critters and all. Some wholesaler pays people to dive and pick up rocks off the bottom of the ocean, wrap it in newspaper, and ship it to you for an extortion. The neat thing about this live rock is you never know what type of critters are hitching a ride. Could be a crab, a brittle star, a sea cucumber, you name it I have found it in a chunk of rock. The bad thing is, you can also get nasties as well, a mantis shrimp or bristle worm, as well as parasites from the region where the rock was collected. Another negitive thing is that it is taken from the wild, and is an irreplacable part of the ecosystem there. Why would you want to do that?
So it truely is up to you what you feel is best for your tank and how much money you will spend. Plain, "dead" rock is a heck of a lot cheaper to cycle yourself. But "live" rock allows you to really place a moderate fish-load in practically the same day without waiting for the beneficial bacteria to grow on its own.
~~Colesea
see i asked about the dead rock becuase i found these site on how ot start a tank well let me copy and paste what i read ok about the dead rock ok lol.......
"Cycling" a new system with uncured live rock.
Introduce the LR after the tank's been up about a week, and use it to cycle the tank. Wait at least two months before introducing the first fish.
Advantages:
You don't stress (or kill) any fish, and do not have to add fish that you will have to remove at a later stage.
You don't need to buy fully cured LR. In fact, the cheaper, uncured LR causes a better cycle, and usually have more diverse life forms in/on them.
You can introduce all the rock at once, do your "rockscaping", and have the tank completely set up when introducing the first fish.
You will have amazing growth of whatever comes on the LR - with no fish to eat them, you will get all kinds of macro algae, featherduster worms, soft polyps, even some corals, growing.
You will also enable the "small life", such as copepods and amphipods, to establish and multiply to such an extent that they should survive predation by your fish. Obviously, if you only have 2 or 3 of a specie to start off with, and they're eaten by a fish on the very first day, none will multiply after that.
see but if oyu say i need that much rock it would like ruin the reson of why i want a salt water tank i want to have alot of fish not alot of rock lol you know? well thanks for your help and if you know anyother way to cycle a tank tell me please i know that damsel become very territorial so they would be out of the question.. i heard that you could use mollies
"Cycling" a new system with uncured live rock.
Introduce the LR after the tank's been up about a week, and use it to cycle the tank. Wait at least two months before introducing the first fish.
Advantages:
You don't stress (or kill) any fish, and do not have to add fish that you will have to remove at a later stage.
You don't need to buy fully cured LR. In fact, the cheaper, uncured LR causes a better cycle, and usually have more diverse life forms in/on them.
You can introduce all the rock at once, do your "rockscaping", and have the tank completely set up when introducing the first fish.
You will have amazing growth of whatever comes on the LR - with no fish to eat them, you will get all kinds of macro algae, featherduster worms, soft polyps, even some corals, growing.
You will also enable the "small life", such as copepods and amphipods, to establish and multiply to such an extent that they should survive predation by your fish. Obviously, if you only have 2 or 3 of a specie to start off with, and they're eaten by a fish on the very first day, none will multiply after that.
see but if oyu say i need that much rock it would like ruin the reson of why i want a salt water tank i want to have alot of fish not alot of rock lol you know? well thanks for your help and if you know anyother way to cycle a tank tell me please i know that damsel become very territorial so they would be out of the question.. i heard that you could use mollies
Okay, this article contradicts itself. Uncurred rock should have no critters or life forms on it, apparently the author does not know the definition of "cured" and "uncured".
The rock itself is not responsible for the cycle, it is the bacteria or algae cultured on the rock that gets the cycle going. Since uncured rock has no bacteria on it, it will not begin to cure unless you add an outside ammonia source. It will not magically cycle a tank in two months in and of itself. You must follow "fishless" cycling proceedures (fishless also means critterless) in order to have a fully estabished biofiltration capacity on your live rock without harming any life forms. Ammonia and nitrite spikes are especially toxic to all SW invertabrates (corals especially).
The only way to get "small" life such as copopods into your tank is to introduce them yourself. Many of these creatures attach themselves to already cured "live" rock (hense the use of the term "live" rock). Uncured rock is steril and carries none of the critters mentioned above, you basically buy it off the shelf instead of out of an already established tank. Cured rock is one that has been sitting in an estabished tank that bacteria and critters have attached itself to.
The article does give good advice as to allowing the creatures to multiply and establish a decent sized population before introduction of fish. Copopods eat small phytoplankton or zooplankton, so you will need to provide a food source for these animals so the population thives instead of dies out. But if the rock is cured, then no real cycle period is needed because the bacteria is already in existance to support the bioload of a moderate amount of fish. Personally I wouldn't over-do it, and would take precautions against ammonia spiking due to not enough "live" rock to support the fish by adding small numbers at a time.
Many people make the mistake you do. Empty, barren tanks are bad bad bad for marine fish, especially smaller species. They need all the rockwork they can get because they are extreamly territorial. Many also do much healthier knowing they have a cranny to get into and be safe if there is a predator or larger fish about (or you scare the crap out of them by putting your mug against the glass<G>). The fish will also graze off the rock, so you do want enough of it so that if they graze a piece of it completely barren, the rest will still be able to support the tank. Marine tanks should never have "a lot of fish" in them unless they are of 100+ gallon size. Even then, if you get especially large fish, that cuts down significantly on the amount of fish you can have. You'll be surpised, smaller species can really make themselves at home, and you can add more fish than you think in a tank with well thought out rockwork.
Mollies (particularly black ones) make the point of a "fishless" cycle moot. Now you must follow all proceedure for making sure your fish don't suffer from ammonia/nitrite spikes, and that you have a place for them once you feel your cycle is complete. "Fish-in" cycles, even with using mollies, take much longer than "fishless" cycles. The same principles that apply to freshwater "fish-in" cycles apply to SW "fish-in" cycles, except that ammonia and nitrites are 10x more toxic to fish in a SW tank than a FW tank. So if you have an out of control ammonia spike during a "fish-in" cycle, you are pretty much screwed because all your fish will be dead and you might as well start over from scratch.
If you are using "live" rock, why not just purchase a few small damsels instead of mollies? That is the benefit of "live" rock, getting the fish you really want right from the start without having to panic over ammonia/nitrite spikes because the rock already carries the necessary bacteria.
~~Colesea
The rock itself is not responsible for the cycle, it is the bacteria or algae cultured on the rock that gets the cycle going. Since uncured rock has no bacteria on it, it will not begin to cure unless you add an outside ammonia source. It will not magically cycle a tank in two months in and of itself. You must follow "fishless" cycling proceedures (fishless also means critterless) in order to have a fully estabished biofiltration capacity on your live rock without harming any life forms. Ammonia and nitrite spikes are especially toxic to all SW invertabrates (corals especially).
The only way to get "small" life such as copopods into your tank is to introduce them yourself. Many of these creatures attach themselves to already cured "live" rock (hense the use of the term "live" rock). Uncured rock is steril and carries none of the critters mentioned above, you basically buy it off the shelf instead of out of an already established tank. Cured rock is one that has been sitting in an estabished tank that bacteria and critters have attached itself to.
The article does give good advice as to allowing the creatures to multiply and establish a decent sized population before introduction of fish. Copopods eat small phytoplankton or zooplankton, so you will need to provide a food source for these animals so the population thives instead of dies out. But if the rock is cured, then no real cycle period is needed because the bacteria is already in existance to support the bioload of a moderate amount of fish. Personally I wouldn't over-do it, and would take precautions against ammonia spiking due to not enough "live" rock to support the fish by adding small numbers at a time.
Many people make the mistake you do. Empty, barren tanks are bad bad bad for marine fish, especially smaller species. They need all the rockwork they can get because they are extreamly territorial. Many also do much healthier knowing they have a cranny to get into and be safe if there is a predator or larger fish about (or you scare the crap out of them by putting your mug against the glass<G>). The fish will also graze off the rock, so you do want enough of it so that if they graze a piece of it completely barren, the rest will still be able to support the tank. Marine tanks should never have "a lot of fish" in them unless they are of 100+ gallon size. Even then, if you get especially large fish, that cuts down significantly on the amount of fish you can have. You'll be surpised, smaller species can really make themselves at home, and you can add more fish than you think in a tank with well thought out rockwork.
Mollies (particularly black ones) make the point of a "fishless" cycle moot. Now you must follow all proceedure for making sure your fish don't suffer from ammonia/nitrite spikes, and that you have a place for them once you feel your cycle is complete. "Fish-in" cycles, even with using mollies, take much longer than "fishless" cycles. The same principles that apply to freshwater "fish-in" cycles apply to SW "fish-in" cycles, except that ammonia and nitrites are 10x more toxic to fish in a SW tank than a FW tank. So if you have an out of control ammonia spike during a "fish-in" cycle, you are pretty much screwed because all your fish will be dead and you might as well start over from scratch.
If you are using "live" rock, why not just purchase a few small damsels instead of mollies? That is the benefit of "live" rock, getting the fish you really want right from the start without having to panic over ammonia/nitrite spikes because the rock already carries the necessary bacteria.
~~Colesea
69 nova,
The "uncured" rock you are speaking of will kick off an ammonia cycle in your tank. This is rock that was taken from the ocean and shipped to you. During the shipping process some of the critters & bacteria will die off. This die off will cause an ammonia spike in your system and start your cycle. Nitrating bacteria will then multiply to handle the ammonia spike and convert the ammonia into nitrite. Then different bacteria will multiply and convert your nitrite to nitrate. After this process is complete, your tank is cycled.
If you plan on using LR as your biofilter, you will need between 1 - 2 lbs per gallon to handle a full fish load.
Brian
The "uncured" rock you are speaking of will kick off an ammonia cycle in your tank. This is rock that was taken from the ocean and shipped to you. During the shipping process some of the critters & bacteria will die off. This die off will cause an ammonia spike in your system and start your cycle. Nitrating bacteria will then multiply to handle the ammonia spike and convert the ammonia into nitrite. Then different bacteria will multiply and convert your nitrite to nitrate. After this process is complete, your tank is cycled.
If you plan on using LR as your biofilter, you will need between 1 - 2 lbs per gallon to handle a full fish load.
Brian
The definition of live rock is you get a bunch of rock stright from the ocean. It will have a bunch of stuff on it that will be dead or dying, killed the transport. You then wash off the worst, and stick it in a big tank and wait for the rest to rot off. This process is called curing.
Curing can be used to cycle the tank, because the die off will provide ammonia. The downside is that it can produce so much the cycle will be hard to finish, and will kill more stuff as it goes on. But if you wash off well , and do water changes as necassary you can do it, and it's not a bad way to do it.
You don't often see uncured for sale as it's a lot of hassle to do it. Theoretically you should get more critters on the live rock, but conditions in curing tanks are usually so foul they'll be killed. Is cured rock for you -yes if you have a really big tank, and don't mind 50 water changes 3 times a week. Most people just get cured and accept the limited dieoff from taking it home
Curing can be used to cycle the tank, because the die off will provide ammonia. The downside is that it can produce so much the cycle will be hard to finish, and will kill more stuff as it goes on. But if you wash off well , and do water changes as necassary you can do it, and it's not a bad way to do it.
You don't often see uncured for sale as it's a lot of hassle to do it. Theoretically you should get more critters on the live rock, but conditions in curing tanks are usually so foul they'll be killed. Is cured rock for you -yes if you have a really big tank, and don't mind 50 water changes 3 times a week. Most people just get cured and accept the limited dieoff from taking it home
Oh yes, you want the stuff anyway because it's the easiest way to filter a tank, and you'll need to provide shelter, caves etc anyway or the fish behaviour will be wierd and probably very agressive. A tank with live rock is easier to maintain, and more attractive than one you filter in with a big hob or cannister. If you tell most successful marine aquarists you don't want live rock they think you're pretty wierd.
Another option for mail order LR is http://www.gulf-view.com . This florida aquacultured LR. This is dead rock that was placed in the gulf of mexico about 10 years ago. Dale, the owner, dives for the rock when he gets orders. This rock has unbelieveable life on it. Mine came with pink, purple, red, orange and green coraline algae, lots of macro algae. and an open brain coral attached to one of the rocks. This rock experiences minimal die off due to the short amount of time it spends out of the water. My shipment was out of water for a total of 12 hrs. Just beware that when buying this rock you have a greater chanc of receiveing a mantis shrimp. But IMHO the life can not be matched by any other rock.
Brian
Brian
Comeon. You live in LA, California. You can get rock cheaper than making it. There are so many wholesalers for live rock in Los Angeles that it's pretty cheap. You can get it for $1.50 to $2.00 a pound.
If you look in the www.recycler.com, you can get it for even cheaper. I think I paid about 75 cents to $1 a lb for live rock from other aquariusts in the area (Orange County/LA area).
If you look in the www.recycler.com, you can get it for even cheaper. I think I paid about 75 cents to $1 a lb for live rock from other aquariusts in the area (Orange County/LA area).
Yeh i live in the los angeles county well in los angeles accuattly well anyways i dont know many wholesaler around here becuase im barely getting into the hobby i been lookin around the net for some address and all i have found are one in inglewood and that one seems to be expensive becuase asked these guy down a pet shop and he said their expensive. i think he might be trying to like make me order stuff for him i dont know well anyways thanx for everyone that has pitched in to help me out its been very very informative ok guys kep it up the good work.................
M.a.D
M.a.D