hybrids friendly discussion

[brian1973]

Now I have been here long enough to know that many are opposed to hybrids, and this topic is almost like discussing politics but lets keep it friendly and informative for others and new members. I want to explore the opinions on selective breeding as well.

Discus: Colbalt blue (among other designers)are considered hybrids from many web sources..are these true hybrids or are they a specific species that is being called hybrid because they have been selectively bred color morphs?
That brings up another question the comment was made that there are many beautiful natural cichlid species that one shouldnt need hybrid, how does this apply to selective breeding since in most cases selective bred fish would not survive in the wild due to being an easy target.

Why is it common to denounce hybrids on this forum as freaks, frankenstein fish when many hybrids do exist in the wild. I understand that the most common hybrids, parrots and flower horns are deformed fish that are line bred for the genetic deformities to be prevalant and this is ethically questionable.

Platys are another common hybrid..as stated recently in a popular fish magazine, it stated most platys in the hobby today are the offspring of sword/platy crosses. I wish I still had the magazine to give the specific reference. So should we boycott platys as well.

I know many use the domestic dog as a reference for hybrids..while this is "apples to oranges" the domestic dog (one species many breeds) came from wild dogs of different species so while it isnt truly accurrate it does IMO have some validity because the hybrid did end up becoming species specific.

The statement was also made that hybrids cant be used in breeding programs..this isnt entirely true..if a hybrid, species A X species B is bred to Species A then line bred with species A again species A will eventually dominate the DNA and become species specific again..(sorry for including that but when I was going to college for a Natural resouces degree we had to explore how hybrid animals CAN be used in species survival.)

 

[Cichlid-Man]

I havn't paid much attention honestly, i'm multi tasking so i will come back and contribute more in a little bit but, Cobalt Discus IMO are not in any way hybrids. They are all originally from a Green/Blue wild discus which are named as one species. So no matter how many strains it took to get there, its still the same species. Strains are just color morphs of the species, not distinct species themselves. I think having so much variety and so many strains confuses people into thinking there must be lots of discus species much like the african cichlid world. This is not true. There are only 2 species of discus, and maybe 1 other possible one but it hasn't taken hold yet. Even then, the new 3rd species is just a color morph and has no distinction from the others in DNA.

 

[Fuzz16]

not everyone here is against hybrids. some...like the parrot fish people dont like for some reason beyond me. perhaps because the defects most of them end up having,like being unable to close thier mouth and having eatin problems then bein sterile. its just really unnatural for some and thier created to make money, while people ignore the effects it could have on the fish.

and with the cobald discus...i have never heard of it being considered a hybrid...sounds kinda stupid.

hybrids are like purple rose queens and parrot fish, and some of the newer catfish thier comin out with.

 

[Orion]

Sure some cichlids hybridize in the wild, but if this was that prolific, then we would see more hybrids and less pure species. Because we don't right away tells me that there is something 'wrong' with the hybrids be it that they don't have the proper food gathering skills needed from either species, or their color's are too bright or too dark making them stand out or what ever. What cichlid hybrids are commonly found in the wild or not just a one time rare find?

My beef so to speak isn't with the hybridization of any fish in general. Heck, some of the time the offspring can be superior than either parent. I just strongly feel that it has no place in this hobby. My reference to the dogs wasn't about the genetic lineage of the animals, but the care that was taken to get them to the point they are at today. A 'puggle' is not a breed of dog.

IMHO, selective breeding in general is a good way for Man to show his dominance and arrogance over nature. "Wow, you followed a straight line, here's a cookie." Eh. But these fish are carefully bred with the end result in mind for many generations, not some hap hazard pairing of two different species just to see what the end result is going to be.

Have you ever seen Ballon Rams, or I think they've been called Angel Rams? That's a crime against the cichlid family.

 

[Cichlid-Man]

I pretty much agree with Orion, its not the act of hybridization, its what people do with them afterwords. If you want to play doctor in your own home/tanks, by all means you have the right to. But please don't distribute the result out into the hobby, no matter how much or how little of the "hybrid" you can see. If you must distribute it, sell it for what it is and only sell healthy fish. A good breeder, reguardless of what they breed will or should have a good culling practice.

But like i said in the other thread, the problem is, while you the hybrid breeder might be 110% clear on what the cross is, once its in the LFS's hand they turn around and sell it for what they want it to be sold as.

But yes, a lot of hybrids are not needed in the hobby. Whats the point of the balloon ram? They look like a bloated normal ram, why?

 

[big54bob]

I find hybridizing natural. But Ballon rams are ugly.


The flowerhorn is a hybred of alot of species that you cant see any species. My guess that its Trimac, Midas, Texas, and Vejas.

 

[Rayneuki]

To the Balloon Ram thing -
Same reason for Ballon Mollies... they're more 'cutesie'.
I don't know any more... I just recently gave away my kribs (friend wanted them, I wanted some cons.)
I got two convicts for my twenty... What's really sad is I have no clue if they're really full con or not. The babies were with a huge tank full of other cichlids... and the ones I have sort of look like they MIGHT have a bit of JD in them. Not bothered really... but still I can understand the frustration.

Yes I know that once they breed there will be millions or so... I'm not too concerned about it. I plan to not let them live that long. (I'm not THAT opposed to culling... It just seems pointless to cull a hybrid JUST because it's a hybrid.)

TO MY POINT.
I sort of understand the frustration... but for someone who's looking for pure bloods... wouldn't they go INTO it understanding this? If they were REALLY serious about it, they would have researched and tried to find a TRULY pure blood of the particular race... Right?

 

[brian1973]

Sorry Orion, i dont know about cichlid hybrids in the wild, i misworded that. I should have said that NA native hybrids are common in the wild, sunfish are the biggest hybrids, with them dominating many lakes/ponds in certain areas. These are naturally occuring.

 

[Orion]

Oh no Brian, I know what your saying. I was just saying that I do know that it does happen with cichlids in the wild. I do hear of collectors comming back with undescribed wild fish only to later find out that they are a hybrid. Any fish with close enough genes can hybridize if they are in close enough proximity to each other when 'the mood' strikes.

But when it happens in our tanks, we take all the 'chance occurrence' out of it. Force ably or by accident, when the fish prepare to spawn they will try find a mate, regardless of species, and if one of a different species is all we give them in our tanks, then that's what they are going to mate with. They don't have that luxury the wild counterparts do to just swim somewhere else to look for a more suitable mate of the same species.

I've seen Balloon Rams also sold as Angel Rams. Seems the more creative they get with the name, the more disgusting the fish. All the specialty rams I've ran across have almost ZERO caudal fin, most of the dorsal fin is missing and they bounce in the water as if they can't even balance themselves upright or swim in one spot.

But really at the end of the day it boils down to the people who are 'Purists', and those less so. Neither one is right or wrong, it's just the way each views the hobby. This is almost like a sub-religion within the fish keeping trade lol.