I need help with a decision.

[Thyra]

I have mentioned my dilemma in another thread sometime ago. My daughter has a 30 gallon aquarium with two 4" -5" angel fish that have been in the tank for about 5 years. There is one other fish in the tank - she thinks it’s a platy and her husband thinks its an “Algae eater” I have not seen the tank for at least a year and probably didn’t pay any attention to it when I did last see it. Here is the problem: They are moving, and the Grandsons are both in college, - they want me to take the tank. In spite of the care the fish have had, they have thrived and grown. They have been in chlorinated water with very intermittent water changes. The tank has never been completely emptied or cleaned in 11 years, which means the undergravel filter has never been moved. I can only guess what would be lurking underneath. I originally told them I had no room for another tank, but she is pushing and I have now developed a “kind of” of plan to clear a spot on a large solid desk where it could be safely placed. They have never used anything to treat the water. Does the chlorine dissipate on its own after awhile? (I have well water that is working fine in my other tanks) Do I take the under gravel filter out and clean it? I don’t understand these filters, but I guess I can learn. I read reports from people who use them - some love them and some hate them.

There are a few more things I have to consider before making my decision, but understanding about the chlorine and cleaning that filter will be a start. (There could be a huge difference in pH, too I suppose) Thanks for your help!

 

[misterking]

Oh wow, 11 years! I bet there is a hell of a lot of gunk under that filter tray...

Ok so firstly, personally I'd take it and make space for it lol, but that's just me being impulsive. I forget what fish you've currently got, if you don't have angels it'd be nice to have that sort of set-up.

As far as I know, yes, chlorine does generally dissipate from the water in time, but most do this by letting it sit in a bucket for a day or two. However, I would suspect there'd have been a mini-cycle every time they did an untreated water change or top-up (chlorine kills bacteria, that's why it's put in drinking water in the first place).

Is the undergravel filter the only filter in the tank? They're fine underneath gravel, as they help draw the muck down through the gravel to the bottom. However, this does need cleaning now and then and it's quite difficult to do so! They should really be used WITH a normal canister filter (or whatever type of power filter you prefer). I personally don't like them and if I were you I'd get rid of it altogether and just use a normal filter rated for a 30+ gallon. UG filters aren't very complicated, the water is draw downwards through the gravel by the upward motion of bubbles provided by an air pump in the tube. Unfortunately they don't do much for chemical filtration (removal of ammonia etc) and this is why they're almost always used WITH another more typical filter.

So really, I'd do the following:

1. Find the space for it and have a plan of how you'd want to set it up/change it before hand.

2. Do a MASSIVE overhaul on the tank when in position. Put your fish in another container and keep some of the water to top up with later. Rinse (don't clean or boil) the gravel in dechlorinated water (or old tank water) so the bacteria is preserved and a mini cycle can be avoided.

3. Clean all the gunk out of the bottom of the tank (this will smell, I warn you, especially after 11 years).

4. Replace the filter, and put a few grains of gravel in with the sponge to help seed the bacteria, and also perhaps some media from the established filter in your other tank.

5. Re-fill with treated (dechlorinated) water, then again, I'm assuming your well water doesn't need treating? I'm not sure, we use mains supply. If it doesn't need treating then just refill. Top up with the water you reserved from earlier.

6. Make sure the temperature, parameters etc are fine and put the fish back in.

7. Keep an eye on things closely for a few weeks until everything's settled/established.

I would assume the pH would be quite low after 11 years with all that muck, so it's quite important to reserve some of the water to avoid a massive pH crash which the fish would not enjoy!

Hope that helps!

 

[Thyra]

Thanks MK, That is helpful I will learn more in a couple of days. There is another filter according to my daughter, but she didn't have any details except it was worth about $150. I"m making dinner for them tonight so hopefully will learn more. I definitely need to approach this with caution. I don't have any angels in either my 16 or 26g tank due to size of tank and compatibility issues. Will keep you informed!

 

[misterking]

Please do! It could work out well. I'm having a vision of the 2 angels, a few nice tetras and cories. But yes approach with caution, don't want to take on something that's beyond help!

 

[Fishman1995]

Well Water doesnt need Declhorinating O.O We have well water, does that mean i dont need to treat it

 

[Dylandrewsdad]

If you tank the tank and fish (Which you should, I like MK ALWAYS take free fish and tanks!) I would put them in a different tank with the water from there tank and SLOWLY acclimate them to the good stuff (clean, fresh declorinated water)

Good Luck!

 

[OrangeCones]

Well Water doesnt need Declhorinating O.O We have well water, does that mean i dont need to treat it

Well water does not contain chlorine, but often contains heavy metals (depends on what is in the ground around the well). A decent water conditioner will bind heavy metals (read the label to see what yours does) so that they do not hurt fish.

Unless you know your well water does not contain heavy metals (expensive to test to find out, and you'd have to test often as when it rains, water comes to the well from unknown locations), I'd use a dechlorinator like Prime, since it also takes care of the heavy metals.

 

[Thyra]

I am thinking it is okay, OC. We have lived here over 30 years and I had various fish for the first 15 years. Due to work and travel obligations I had to quite for a while, but this year I decided I wanted to get involved again. I have otos in three tanks and neons in one right now and I understand they are sensitive to imperfect water. They have done fine going on 7 months now. If any trouble develops I will certainly look in to it.

 

[Thyra]

Well, I know very little more after dinner last night than I did before. There's apparently 3 filters involved but no one knows the name of any of them and the $150 (supposedly) is too big for the tank, but they couldn't tell me what kind it is. If it is a canister, I don't think I could deal with it anyway, because don't they have to set lower than the tank? Even if they don't, I will have enough problems dealing with the 36" of room I need on that counter. I think what I will do is go up to the house they are moving from and evaluate the situation. For one thing, as I vaguely remember, they had bright turquoise substrate in it and I lean more toward natural. Will continue to keep you posted!

 

[misterking]

It might be an interesting project, completely remodel it as you'd like, it'd be cheap to replace the substrate with playsand. Definitely go and see the tank before you commit to it, I guess they just want it to go to a good home! Keep us posted

 

[skjl47]

Hello; On well water. I was fortunate to have good well water for a number of years at a past home. No treatement is required before adding it to a tank other than temperature considerations. A 36 gallon with a new fill of water will take a while to come up to temperature, depending on the heater used. I like to run a new setup for a few days with a filter running to allow for adjusting the heater and to let things settle. When I did water changes, I could run fresh well water straight into a tank. Now that I am on public water, I have many gallons of water sitting around in containers waiting a week to use for water changes ( I do not use chemicals). Your water has been good for the current fish and that make me feel that it is fine. I described a way to clean an dirty tank with a no -iodine salt paste in another post. If you wish I can describe the process again.

 

[Thyra]

Thanks SK, I would like to avoid chemicals also and have had no problem so far. I filled the original new tanks with the hose and both of them sat at least 2 weeks until I got things together. Now when I change water I siphon into a bucket, but use an instant read thermometer and two 4 liter bottles that drinking water came in. I set the temp and them if I move fast enough it is just a continuous "bottle brigade", but I do check the temp of each bottle to be sure nothing changed - good exercise! lol Being in the Pacific NW we have a lot of power outages and although we have a generator, our well is not on it. Yes, I did read your method of cleaning and it is a good one.

 

[Thyra]

Okay, I have "viewed" the tank. It is pretty barren with the exception of a lighthouse and either a castle or chalet. The underground filter uses an air pump (I thought they needed some sort of powerhead which I know nothing about) The other filter in use is a Whisper 40. The big filter - all in pieces and parts - is a Rena Filstar canister. It appears to be about a 9 or 10 inches cube. I have read up on it and out of 52 reviews they either love it or hate it - there are no inbetweens. It is also either so quiet they can't hear it or so noisy they can't sleep. I printed up the setup sheet so I can at least study it, but on the surface it looks like a plumber's worst nightmare! lol I don't know much about angel fish either - one is black and the other calico. They aren't as big as described - maybe with the finnage, but the actual body is more like 2 inches. The extra fish in there turned out to be a High Fin Tetra (Serpae) of all things. I bought a large plastic tub with lid for the moving. The substrate is black and turquoise and I definitely want to change that, but our nearest Walmart only had the same color, so I need to go into Olympia. In the meantime I am still moving cookbooks, etc. to clear 36 inches of space. On the bright side - if this doesn't all work out, maybe I can put dividers in and have 6 bettas!! LOL

 

[misterking]

I'm not experienced with those types of filters unfortunately but I do doubt it needs all 3! I'd say definitely get rid of the undergravel filter, as I said they're just not necessary.

As for angels, they're fairly simple fish. Hardy, good personalities, and interesting to watch. It seems likely you have koi and marble varieties there, there's no difference between them other than the colour. With the serpae tetra, I'd say either bump up the shoal considerably or rehome it because they can be extremely nippy (I hated mine, they tore my other fishes fins to shreds.. worse than the tiger barbs I used to have).

 

[skjl47]

Hello; When the tank is set up and at temperature, a water change of several gallons should not cause a big enough temperature to be concerned about. At least there have been no problems for me when changing up to 5 gallons in a 20 gallon tank. (The change water is at room temp.) When I had well water, I would drain the tank water and then fill the tank straight from a hose. I imagine there may have been a temp change of two to three degrees at most. You might start with small volume changes at first and increase the volume untill an amount can be determined that will not cause a big temp change.
Sounds like the angels are a bit larger than silver dollar size. They can grow larger. I have a preference for black substrate, but have not been able to locate pure black quartz gravel lately. They have a gravel that is coated with black epoxy, but I have not used it and do not like the idea. Black substrate brings out the colors of most fish.

 

[Thyra]

I can see what you mean by black bringing out the color, SK, but I still think I will look for the "natural" river run, I think they call it. That is what is in all my other tanks. (Am I really saying that?? "All my other tanks") This was suppose to be one little 16 gallon tank, period. This new one will make FIVE. As far as the Tetra Serpae is concerned, I can't imagine that he is happy in there all by himself, but no one looks like they have "nipped" on each other in that tank. I will probably put him in the tank with the other Serpaes. The four in there chase together, but I have seen no nipping so far. As far as with the two Angels, that tank probably has room for two more, but I will wait until things settle down and I get more comments. BTW, MK, I really enjoyed your PM!! It is never too long.

 

[skjl47]

Hello; When I started, undergravel filters were all that we had. I used them for years without a problem. I have gone away from them in recent years. ( Not sure why they went out of vogue. Perhaps someone on this forum can shed some light.) I do however like to have some aeration from an air pump with an air stone, if nothing else. I have a couple of survivor hang on filters that use the bubbles from an air pump to lift water from the tank and then gravity flow sends it back into the aquarium after it passes thru some filter medium. I also have buried a sponge filter in the corner of a tank before, they run on an air pump.
I have never had a canister filter. If one was available to me, I would try to set it up just to see how they work. I have had several types of hang on power filters over the years and have one in use now. They move a lot of water and have easy to change filter media. You have to prime them with water to get them going. The impellers wear after a while and can become noisy.

 

[misterking]

Haha, you know that PM very nearly was TOO long - they have a 5000 character limit which I went over by 300 at one point!

Of course - I forgot you had serpaes already, good call on putting him in there with them. Have you thought about what else you'll stock the new tank with? And I totally agree about natural coloured gravel. You should be able to pick up your typical natural pea gravel fairly cheaply, possibly get it delivered online if you don't fancy the long trip to Olympia?

 

[Thyra]

This is almost like expecting a baby! lol I have the counter cleared (Husband will never find anything I moved) I will get the gravel tomorrow and the fish & tank should come in the afternoon. (That is assume we go from this clear cold weather to rain without a mess of snow) I Googled "angelfish" and read everything I could find. The one thing I couldn't find any info on was decor compatible with these fish. Do they need something they can hide in? Or will plants kind of arranged in a corner be sufficient? I do own a pretty slab of rock that could be propped so they could hide behind that I guess. Are their fins easily damaged by plastic plants or do they clamp their fins down when getting into small places?? (I have been amazed at the tiny places my bettas can get into and out of with no problem in spite of all their finnage.) As far as tank mates, after reading the recommendations, I am leaning towards more angelfish. If they get too big, I will trade them for smaller ones. When the time is right I will put in some otos, also.

 

[bassbonediva]

Hello; When I started, undergravel filters were all that we had. I used them for years without a problem. I have gone away from them in recent years. ( Not sure why they went out of vogue. Perhaps someone on this forum can shed some light.) I do however like to have some aeration from an air pump with an air stone, if nothing else. I have a couple of survivor hang on filters that use the bubbles from an air pump to lift water from the tank and then gravity flow sends it back into the aquarium after it passes thru some filter medium. I also have buried a sponge filter in the corner of a tank before, they run on an air pump.
I have never had a canister filter. If one was available to me, I would try to set it up just to see how they work. I have had several types of hang on power filters over the years and have one in use now. They move a lot of water and have easy to change filter media. You have to prime them with water to get them going. The impellers wear after a while and can become noisy.

Undergravel filters went "out of vogue" because people started realizing that they're giant nitrate factories. Debris gets trapped under the filter plate and rots. They're a PAIN to clean out and can cause massive nitrate spikes if not handled properly (which most people don't).

As for canister filters...if I could have one on each of my tanks that's bigger than 20 gallons, I would. I have one on my 55gal and absolutely love it. I don't have to do anything with it. No swishing out filter cartridges or media when I do a water change. It also has TONS of extra room for extra media, so if I need to jump start the cycle on a new tank, all I have to do is grab a piece of media from the canister filter and I have an instant cycle.

This is almost like expecting a baby! lol I have the counter cleared (Husband will never find anything I moved) I will get the gravel tomorrow and the fish & tank should come in the afternoon. (That is assume we go from this clear cold weather to rain without a mess of snow) I Googled "angelfish" and read everything I could find. The one thing I couldn't find any info on was decor compatible with these fish. Do they need something they can hide in? Or will plants kind of arranged in a corner be sufficient? I do own a pretty slab of rock that could be propped so they could hide behind that I guess. Are their fins easily damaged by plastic plants or do they clamp their fins down when getting into small places?? (I have been amazed at the tiny places my bettas can get into and out of with no problem in spite of all their finnage.) As far as tank mates, after reading the recommendations, I am leaning towards more angelfish. If they get too big, I will trade them for smaller ones. When the time is right I will put in some otos, also.

My angel rarely, if ever, hides. When he does "hide" it's behind the driftwood and plants.

As far as tankmates...just curious as to why you'd want to stress your permanent fish out, and the "transient" fish as well, by constantly rotating angels through the tank? Angels grow relatively quickly (mine has more than doubled size in about four months), so to keep the angels from getting "too big" (a phrase I'm slightly confused by in this context...why exactly is "too big"?) you'd be rotating them out every few months. That's a lot of unnecessary stress. Also, remember that angels are cichlids and are territorial with their own kind. Constantly keeping your tank in a state of upheaval by adding and removing fish pretty much as soon as they can establish territory will increase stress and aggression.