I need some opinions please

[Fishman1995]

Okay so as you all know, im working on a 10 gallon Dwarf Tang Shellie tank. I joined Shelldwellers.com a few months ago but didnt use it much. I came back the other day and posted a thread and asked about keeping multiple species in a 10 gallon. I was told i should never mix shellies in any size tank. I find this makes no since when people do it all the time, its all over youtube and even my research gives me shellies species i can keep together as prefered tankmates. Aqadvisor says my stocking levels are fine so i dont see the big deal as long as i seperate the territorys as i intend to do. So i need to know what your opinions are on this. Should i listen to the people on Shelldwellers.com or listen to the research sites? I mean, doesnt it make since if i choose 2-3 small peaceful species that would incounter each other in the wild that i could put them in the same tank.

Also, ive decided to buy CaribSea Argonite Argamax Oolite sand for my substrate, according to petsmart it helps with alot of things, has anyone else used that? Also, do you guys think itd be okay to keep other fish such as some sort of bottom dweller with my Shellies to clean up the excess food such as Kuhli Loachs or something? I will be buying a manual gravel vacume but id be scared to use it that id suck up one of my fish, but il just be SUPER careful.

So here are a few stocking options im considering ATM without adding any bottom dweller:

Any pair or trio of the following
neolamprologus multifasciatus
neolamprologus brevis
lamprologus ocellatus
Altolamprologus sp. "Sumbu"

with some rockwork in the center for ONE of the following:

neolamprologus brichardi (Would only go with the Altolamprologus Pair)
julidochromis transcriptus
julidochromis dickfeldi
julidochromis regani
julidochromis ornatus

And on the other side any pair or trio of the following: (Opposite from above)

neolamprologus multifasciatus
neolamprologus brevis
lamprologus ocellatus
Altolamprologus sp. "Sumbu"

Some species i REALLY like are the Altolamprologus sp. "Sumbu's" and the Brichardi's

Now the way id incorporate the bottom dweller is remove the center cichlid and add in something such as an Upside Down Catfish or other catfish like that can handle the high PH.

Please anyone. Offer advice and critique and even offer some things you'd change or you'd include. Thanx

 

[kenny1tothe6]

Is there *ANY* way you could get a 20 gallon long[not high, their footprints are close to a 10gal] for some more options? Because for just a 10gal, I'd say best bet would probably be a trio of N. Multifasciatus[1M, 2FM] and let them breed...no bottom dwellers...not even synodontis nigriventris[many different upside down catfish, but I assume that's the one you're talking about]...

 

[Fishman1995]

no, all i can get is my 10 gallon.

 

[ryanoh]

I agree that you should just pick one species if you have to do the ten. I've done a lot of research too about keeping multiple species, and I imagine we've probably read a lot of the same stuff. I bet nothing you've found has said that you have enough room to establish multiple territories in a ten. The only thing I'd say you might be able to to do is a colony of shellies (which you do know are bottom dwellers, right), and maybe some sort of top fish. I know rainbow fish are popular for shellie tanks, but I have no idea if this will work in a 10 gallon. Research that more if you decide to do it.

 

[Fishman1995]

Actually i go to google and dont just type in Neolamprologus Multifasciatus. I go to google and type in 5 different things a read every new article i find. Some articles pop up if you type in "Care" Or "Sexing" after the species name. And actually i can keep all species i named in a 10 gallon however no website has stated whether i can establish multiple colonys in a 10 gallon but aqadvisor gave me no warnings EXCEPT do not put more than one Julidochromis species together.

African Cichlids: Neolamprologus (Says nothing about mixing but a helpful website to bookmark)

So today i went and got some medium sized rocks to make rockwork out of. My plan is to have such a large rockwork pile no 2 species can see each other. and i can easily also add my plants so theres a plant wall one on the side of the rock pile to basically divide my tank into 2 spaces without physically dividing it with an UGLY divider.

So essentially my plan is to start with a Pair of "Sumbu's" then add in a Brichardi later on.

I also might do a few dither(s) which i hope you all know what they are used for. My dither(s) choices would be hatchets probably or Danio's or some other tiny topdweller.

 

[ryanoh]

I don't think there's any talking you out of anything because you're tenacious if nothing else, but let us know how it goes. I'm curious to see pictures of the rockwork as well.

 

[Fishman1995]

I agree with you 100% ryanoh, i can let go of things i want really bad. its not in my nature. Il uploade the rockwork photos in 2 weeks when i setup my tank (Mom and dad get paid on week intervals on opposite weeks like dad got paid last week mom did this week and she wants to do it on her week so if i need a little extra she can give it)

The thing with me Ryanoh is i have to experince the failure to belive it. I just can't belive i cant put 2 different 2-3 inch remotely peaceful cichlid species together when the Alto wont even fight unless provoked and the Brichardi isnt overly aggressive either. I suppose this is why MK, OC, LauraF now Bass ever post on my threads anymore. I really miss them all :/

 

[ryanoh]

I just can't help be feel a little bad for the fish just because you refuse to take advice from people who have done this before. Where are you getting that these fish aren't aggressive? They're African cichlids. The very definition of setting up a territory is aggressively defending it from others. If this doesn't work out, what are you going to to do? What are you doing with the fish you currently have for that matter? Didn't you "euthanize" your entire tank last time you had a stocking plan not work out like you thought it would?

Why don't you mix in some clown fish too? Sure they're saltwater fish and anyone anywhere would tell you that the osmosis ratio is going to kill them in your freshwater tank, but you've never personally seen it so that probably means you can go ahead and try it, right? Get where I'm going with this?.

 

[Fishman1995]

dont play me like an idiot Ryanoh, Ive seen ppl keep aggressive cichlids all the time and if you would actually read your flippin research you'd read every profile except like 2 says 1 of 3 things (Mildy aggressive, not overly aggressive or one of the most peaceful cichlid species) I watch people everyday house cichlids research says they shouldnt in smaller tanks and they dont die.

Have you in fact ever even kept a cichlid in your life Ryanoh? I have, ive had 3 to be exact. And yes i did uthenize my tank after it had a bacteria bloom and all my fish were offically poisioned, i thought the whole point was to take a fish out of its misey not let it just sit there and slowly die of poisoning. I am offically done asking any of your opinions because quite frankly most of them are biast. Just the other day i read where someone was keeping Tiger Barbs in a 10 gallon but when i was going to put some in a 20 gallon high i was told they were to flippin active. It seems like you guys let other ppl get away with stuff i cant which makes no sense. Oh yes its fine if you overstock but Fishman cant, he has to be perfect. What the flip? Maybe it was best when i left the forum for god knows how many months, i was keeping fish for years before i came here just fine and it actually seems i messed up MORE trying to do stuff the way you suggest than my old ways.

If these cichlids kill each other i will bend over backwards and kiss my butt! thats how sure i am you are wrong and they wont kill each other.

 

[ryanoh]

I'm not trying to "play you like an idiot," I'm just looking out for the fish. You know how people are able to keep aggressive cichlids together? They don't do it in a 10 gallon.

Yes, I've had cichlids. I've had four all together, 3 that came with a parasite and died, and one that I saved from my LFS that was on the brink of being dead and I've brought it back to good health.

And no, I'm not picking on you, and never have been. I don't know anything about stocking other than what I get from aqadvisor, and I know how much you hate when people quote that site at you. I do know that a 10 gallon just isn't enough room for the "active" fish you want to keep. What is it you want these fish to do if not fight each other?

Also, you like to throw the word "research" around a lot, but I've only seen you post one site. You show me the one where it says "you can keep what you want in a 10 gallon with a rock wall between them" and I'll get off your back about it.
The things that gets me the most I guess is that its seems like you know that this is a bad idea, you just want to do it anyways and see what happens. "i have to experince the failure to belive it. "

 

[MotherOfGreatIntentions]

Fishman, take a deep breath and re-read some of the advice you have been given.

First of all, I am not an experienced cichlid keeper (although I would like to be one day). I am fairly experienced hobbyist and have maintained tanks from 1 gallon up to 30. None of those tanks were big enough to keep what you want to stock in a 10g.

YES, I COULD live in a phone booth and I would not die.

For that matter I could fit both of my children in the cupboard under the sink and they would not DIE either.

I want MORE than that for my kids, and MORE than just surviving for my fish.

My goal in keeping aquariums is to try and create a comfortable experience for the fish in which they can live healthy lives without stress, agression or disease. THIS is where my pleasure comes from.

By the time you fill your 10g with your substrate and all that rock you are talking about, you will be left with what... 5 gallons of water? That's just not enough.

Doesn't matter how you try and justify it to yourself, you are merely experimenting on these animals for your own selfish reasons, and are determined to ignore the advice of people who are trying to help you and avoid the disaster you faced last time, having to euthanize your entire tanks.

And stop going on about how experienced you are... If you are still depending on your parents to fund your hobby you must still be in your teens. No offense, but I know people who have been in this hobby for 40 years and they freely admit that they are STILL learning, and they STILL sometimes make mistakes.

Please do yourself and your fish a favour and take a step back until you can admit that you DON'T know everything, that you ARE making mistakes and that you NEED advice from other hobbyists who may just know a smidge more than you.

 

[achase]

Perfectly said MotherOfGreatIntentions!!
That basically sums up my thoughts on the topic. 10 gallons is not appropriate for the fish and stocking plan you want.

I feel like we are having the same conversation over and over......
Everyone is just giving you their feedback, you don't have to listen.

 

[Thyra]

I need to say this! RIGHT ON Ryon!! Some one had to say it. Usually it has been MK. I feel bad Fishman, but in one year of being on this forum, you don't have one single fish still alive from when you started. You have said things you have done that we later found out weren't true - like how much work it was to bail out the water to get the tank level - which obviously you never did. Sorry Kid - you are not a fish keeper - you are a fish user!

 

[Fishman1995]

http://www.shelldwellers.com/shelldwellerbasics.php

Last section on that page. Only thing it appears able to be kept together are Shellies and a Rockdwelling species. But wait? Isnt Altolamprologus sp. Sumbu a shelldweller and isnt Neolamprologus Brichardi a Rockdweller? Well i suppose Brichardi's are quite aggressive, would you guys have an easier feeling if i chose a Julidochromis species instead like someone on Shelldwellers recomended? Or would you just prefer i do only Alto's?

 

[ryanoh]

Cichlid options include the schooling Cyprichromis species in larger tanks, numerous rock dwellers (who may predate fry) like Julidochromis, Chalinochromis, Goby cichlids, members of the N. brichardi group, and so on.

Also, since I feel like you mentioned keeping multies and occies together at some point:
It's rarely if ever a good idea to have multiple species of shelldwellers in the same tank. There are a handful of possible way it can work. First, in a very large tank, a species can be kept on each end, with a fairly aggressive rock dweller living in a large shell pile between the two to keep them separated.

I'm not trying to be mean to you, and I'm sorry if it came across like that in my last post but I was just trying to be direct. I just feel like I really need to get across that you simply don't have room in a 10 gallon to do the things you want to do. I understand that you have to have a 10 gallon right now because of your age and whatnot, but that's just life. Do what's best for the fish right now, then when you're a little older go through with these plans of getting these fish when you have the means to give them the room they need.

 

[Fishman1995]

No need to appologize, sometimes it takes what you did to get threw to me.

However, i still intend to get some Dithers with my Alto's