Is this offensive??

[ChazECJr]

Previously in response to someone who wanted to put their injured betta down, Josh wrote:

"Well, as disgusting as it might sound, I use our disposal when a fish is beyond help. If you stop and think about it, I scoop them into a cup and carry them into the kitchen, the disposal is obviously running when I put them in. They never leave the water and it's over in an instant, probably a pretty painless way to die."

I actually thought that this would be pretty quick and painless myself though of course it does not sound too nice.  It reminded me of something else I read on this subject:

http://www.gsas.org/Articles/1998/heather-euthanasia.html

Anyway I apparently made a mistake and posted this idea at another site where someone had a similar problem.  She posted not one but two threads looking for ideas on putting him down.  After I saw the second thread I thought perhaps I should share this method since she must not have been satisfied with the first batch of answers.

Ohhhh boy, big mistake.  I did not see the responses - my post and several nasty responses to it were deleted by the moderator.  Apparently I was flamed viciously.

So anyway, am I bad for having shared this?  Johnny didn't delete it here.  Are they just too emotional over there, while we are level headed enough for such things here?  I hope so.


Charlie

 

[JWright]

I've posted that on several different forums (Aqualink, Aquariacentral, Tom's, etc.) and I've always been told it's a great idea, no one's ever flamed me. Guess you just got lucky.

Josh

 

[colesea]

We cannot say whether an animal does or does not have emotions until we redefine what emotions are.

Even a single celled ameoba can show a "pain" reflex to a negitive stimulus. Humans may say "ouch" if salt is rub into an open wound, an ameobid creature may increase the use of sodium ion pumps to get rid of the excess sodium diffusing into the cell, close membrane pores to decrease the diffusion of water across the cell membrane, change the protien/lipid structure of the membrane to decrease permability, and may even actively pinocytose (drink in) water to prevent crenation (dehydration) and eventual functional breakdown.

Isolate a human cell, place it next to an ameboid cell, and give them the same negitive stimulus (say a hypertonic, very salty, solution relative to the less salt of their internal cytoplasmas). The human cell will respond exactly the same way the ameboid cell will respond, on the microcellular chemical level. An individual human cell can't say "ouch" yet when intergrated into the human "animal" the stimulus is interpreted by the brain into a response humans have arbritarily defined as "pain."  

Place a truely freshwater fish, say a neon or tetra, into  marine salinity saltwater (34ppt) without proper acclimation. What is happening to that fish? The surronding water is so salty that it is sucking the water right out of the fish's cells, causing the response of the cells exactly as I described above. The sudden dehydration causes disruption to normal cellular function, and cellular function may cease altogether, thus causing the fish to die. Now go ahead and rub salt into an open wound you may have on your flesh. If you watched your skin under a microscope, you would see rapid deyhdration and a disruption of normal cellular function, some of those cells may even die.

Which one of you experienced "pain"?  

As a student in biology, animal behaivor, and animal medicine I have spent many a classes and labs happily debating the moral, ethical, and scientific considerations involved with euthanisa and the "emotional experiences" of an animal.  In my opinion, those who say an animal has no "emotions" are looking for an excuse to rid themselves of moral responsiblity and ethical liability for actions of cruelty towards animals. To say their brains are too simple to interpret physical sensations is utterly ignorant. Just pecause you don't speak French doesn't mean people from France don't say "ouch" and therefore don't experience "pain."  You must define how an animal interprets physical sensations upon the behavioral language of that species, and not upon the human behavior language and arbritary definitions given them. An ameba may may exhibit "salinephobia".  It moves away from salty water into fresher water. Why? Is it because of a cascade of dehydration reactions that disrupt homeostasis and cease cellular function...or is it because the ameba experiances "pain"?
~~Colesea

 

[Skydiver]

I guess I would compare it to myself and what I would want for myself if I knew I was dying or had to be "put to sleep". The choices being slow or fast.......I guess I know the one I would choose....not really into extended pain.

 

[ronrca]

I use extreme hot water. It is instant. I dont really care what other people think about it. Its a whole lot better than a fish jumping out of the tank and me finding it later dead.

 

[Cackett]

i quick flush or even a hit over the quick as pie  :'(

never liek killign fish lucky  i  ghuess only ever killed 1

 

[Cackett]

i quick flush or even a hit over the quick as pie  :'(

never liek killign fish lucky i guess only ever killed 1 fish because it was almost dead..

 

[ronrca]

I dont really like killing my fish either but sometimes one has no choice. I definitely dont kill my fish for no reason like just wanting to get rid of it. Only in a case of sickness.

 

[JWright]

Never flush a fish. This is far from an instant death.

-Josh

 

[colesea]

There is a product on the market called FinQuel that is suppose to be a fish anestetic that robs the water of O2, thus "putting the fish to sleep" by suffocation. It's suppose to be instant.

Unfortunately you need Hazmat certification to use the stuff. I attemtped to mix a batch of it at the store one, read the directions that said you needed all this protective gear (goggles, rubber gloves, smock, a face mask etc) and ditched it for the tried by true hot water method. If it is a particularly big fish, a sharp, quick and strong whack on the counter also works.
~~Colesea

 

[equinom]

Regarding the "hot water method", how hot would the water need to be in order for this to be "instant"?
I'm just thinking about the sound that lobsters make when they are placed in boiling water...

And chazecjr - I bet I know the website that had a problem with your original post!     Sometimes those folks go way overboard -  

 

[ChazECJr]

"Overboard" is a pretty good way to put it.  

Are you still "torturing" your poor betta in a filtered tank??

*laughingcryingsmiley*

 

[equinom]

Hell Yes - and I've gotten 2 more!!!  Take that!!!

These two are both in an UGF filtered (gasp!) 2.5 gallon tank.
Yeh - both are males, and they are in the same tank (double gasp!)
Of course...there is a divider between them.

The filter has an airstone inside the airlift, so it actually has less "current" than the 1 gallon Mr. Flash is in.  

I don't think I will go back to HB - the almighty aditude is sometimes more than I can take.  I prefer a little more fact and not so much fantacy...

How about we get together and see who we can stick in a filtered tank.....

 

[ronrca]

Im not sure how hot the water should be but my hot water is so hot that it could burn your skin. I would that to be hot enough. You can always boil a pot of water if you want. Lobsters when boil actually do not 'scream' or whatever you call it. It has something to do with the shell and air or something. The lobster is quite dead as soon as it enters the hot water.

 

[colesea]

Air escaping from underneath the carapace causes that noise. If you put the lobster in head first, for some reason, the noise isn't made.

Yeah, I use scalding water as well, probably upwards of 80oC. If your tap isn't hot enough, boiling water in a teakettle will also work, then you can pour that water into a small bowl to dunk the fish in. I keep the fish in the net and dunk the whole net at once so all of it is placed in the water at one time. The death does appear to be instant, the fish sometimes spasms once, then goes into a rigor-like stillness, and all gill movement has ceased. After that I bag it and put the body in the deep freeze.

Thus far, the Eclipse system I have at work as not killed a betta yet. In fact, the bettas I place in the Exclipse do better than the ones in their tiny jars. Ignorance sucks.
~~Colesea