Kribs Breathing Labored, resting on bottom

[Big Vine]

I posted this in my thread in the cichlid section too, but figured it might get more attention here...

10 gal. desert theme tank with a pair of kribensis cichlids:


I noticed this morning that both kribs seemed to have rapid gill movement. They both stayed in the spots they usually occupy at the bottom of the tank.

I just got home from being out a couple hours, and the female is now in her cave, laying on her side...still with rapid gill movement.

Is this the end of the road or what?

I'm so frustrated. 3 honey sunset gouramies dead, and now this!?
Yet somehow the male guppy I had was fine in there for several days.

What the hell am I doing wrong?
Big Vine

 

[MissFishy]

That's odd. It sounds like all the fish in there had the same symptoms. Could be some sort of contamination? Have you been using cooking sprays inthe kitchen? Anything else that could have gotten in their water? I would do an immediate water change.

 

[Lotus]

At this point, if she's on her side, it's not a good sign. I would turn off the tank lights and hope for the best. If you have an airstone, you should add it. Don't forget to test parameters and temp, just in case something is wrong.

Did you drip acclimate them? It sounds like either transport or acclimation shock.

 

[Big Vine]

No cooking sprays used or anything like that.
If it is contamination, then it must have come in either from fish or from tank decor---which I doubt, because it is all aquarium-safe stuff and I rinsed it all.

What do the rest of you think about the contamination theory?

I was thinking it might be that, but why is the snail still alive and why did the guppy (who I've since taken back to the LFS) survive in there for several days at the same time as the gouramies?


Lotus,

Here's what I did as far as acclimation goes (it's from another thread):

"I did get a pair of kribs this afternoon (Friday).
They are fairly comparable in size. The male is slightly bigger than the female.

The female (now maybe about 2 inches long) was the only female left. There were about 6 or 8 males in the tank. The LFS guy informed me that they were there for about 2 weeks, and all the other females were apparently "pestered to death" by the males.

Anyhow, the female I got looked good, and she was out in the open (so she was apparently not stressed enough to hide). I got the smallest male (slightly bigger than her) from the same tank.

Pretty good deal I think...the pair cost about $9.00 or so. I think they may have only charged me for one, but I'm not complaining. My job is to select fish I want; their job is to charge me accordingly. If they messed up, then so be it. (Kribs at PetCo were on special for $2.99, by the way, but they looked like crap).

The acclimation process took place over about an hour timeframe. I turned the tank lights out, and I also turned off the room lights around the tank. I floated them, then replaced about 1/4 or 1/3 of the bag water with my tank water. After about 20 or 30 minutes, I then replaced another 1/4 or 1/3 of the bag water with my tank water. I replaced the last 1/3 after another 15-20 minutes, added some stress-coat, then put them in the tank and added a bit more stress-coat.

All this was done with the tank lights and room lights out, so as to minimize stress. I was out for about 5 hours, and they were still alive when I got back.

By the way...what should I feed these guys?
The guy at the LFS recommended (and demonstrated via feeding cichlids in a 90 gallon tank) something called "Cichlid Attack (sinking pellet food)" by HBH. Does that seem appropriate?

Also, the LFS guy says they keep their tanks around 78-81 degrees F. I have adjusted mine accordingly."

Sorry for so much info, but I figure the more the better.

***UPDATE:
By the way, I just took a quick look and saw the female swimming around with the male pursuing her. He nudged into her side, near her tail, with his mouth...I'm assuming he wants her to breed, right?

I watched a few more moments, and he gradually kept pursuing her.
Sufficed to say, I put him in a floating breeding trap with some fake plants from the same tank.***

EDIT: Water Parameters...Ammonia = 0, Nitrites = 0, Nitrates = 7.5 PPM, pH = 7.2, Temp.= 79 F

Big Vine

 

[Big Vine]

Female Died

So much for my attempt at keeping cichlids.

I'm more frustrated than anything else.
On paper, the tank's water parameters are better than all of the rest of my tanks (in which my fish are thriving).


Was the female simply stressed as a result of being pursued by the male?(I watched them closely for signs of this, but didn't really notice until it was apparently too late).

What would account for the male's rapid gill movement, which is still happening at the moment?

Do you think this is all stress brought on by moving them from the LFS to my tank (I thought I did this properly), or do you think there may be contaminants or something else at work here?

Big Vine

 

[mattistat]

maby you just got them sck when you bought them. sorry for your loss

 

[Lotus]

Sorry she didn't make it

Sometimes fish get extremely stressed by the move from the store. It sounds like you did everything right, though. Is it possible they got chilled on the way back from the store? Were they in a dark bag on the way back?

If they died within 24 hours of putting them in, which they did, I would assume either stress at the store, during the move to your home, or during acclimation. The acclimation sounds fine, though.

 

[Big Vine]

Lotus,

They were put in the tank on Friday afternoon, so it's been more like 48 hours.


I was actually impressed by the bag they were put in. It was a thicker paper bag, and folded over at the top so as to create darkness. This was all contained in another plastic grocery-type of sack.

I did stop at two or three places on my way home afterwards to get the clown plecos and some plants, but the fish went into the stores with me, so everything remained dark and at normal temp. They were home within about 1 1/2 to 2 hours. Not ideal, but surely not too long, right?

Could it have been from me walking around with them (I tried not letting the bag water slosh around)?


But here's the question of the day...
Even if something mentioned in the above accounts for the death of the female (remember, the male is still alive...but still breathing heavily), how do you explain the honey sunset gourami deaths?

Big Vine

 

[Lotus]

Hmmm... It's possible the delayed trip home caused ammonia to build up in the bags, or stressed them more.

I always put deaths soon after purchase down as "my fault" for whatever reason it was. If they were fine and swimming around at the store, then I bring them home and they die, I just assume it was something I did.

I'm a little lost on what happened to your gouramis. I personally will never put more than one gourami (except pearls) in a tank again. They just seem to bully eachother to death, IME. I'll go see if I can find your post.

 

[Big Vine]

Lotus,

Check out posts 20, 27, and about 40 onward. (post 20 is on page 2 of the following thread)...

http://www.myfishtank.net/forum/freshwater-general-discussion/42631-fish-desert-theme.html

They were honey gouramies. Small and peaceful...no bullying from what I could tell. (I have had opaline and golds mixed together in a 20 gal. before, and your general advice when it comes to gouramies definitely applied in that situation...things got ugly!).

The gouramies were brought home from the store right away and then acclimated in the same way the kribs were.


But I agree with you...
I'm sure something is wrong on my end.

If it was transportation shock (be it from ammonia build-up in the bag or otherwise), then I can understand where things went wrong.

But you see, I've done the same thing with many other fish before.
In fact, back when I lived in Idaho and didn't have a vehicle, I bicycled one town over (about 8 miles away), bought fish, then brought them home in my backpack (also on my bicycle).

They did just fine!
Obviously some fish are hardier than others, but still...


I suspect that the tank might be contaminated...
The way I see it, there are two scenarios:

1) If the male krib ends up surviving, I'll keep him in there for a couple weeks extra before moving the decor around and then introducing another (bigger, this time) female to replace the one I just lost.

2) If the male krib dies, I'll start putting other fish in there to see if there is something genuinely wrong with the tank itself (and not just me). Depending on what happens, I may have to try removing decorations one by one, by trial-and-error, to see if it helps alleviate the problem.

Would it be reasonable to assume that ALL fish would die IF it were a matter of 'contamination' of some sort, or would only the more sensitive ones die? For that matter, aren't kribs supposed to be fairly hardy?


Sorry these posts are so long...I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this. I'll be the first to admit if I'm doing something wrong, but at this point I suspect that something else is going on. I just can't figure it out.

Big Vine

 

[MissFishy]

I would say that if it were contamination, all fish would eventually die, although some faster than others. IMO, I think your acclimation was a little too quick. I always spend a few hours doing my acclimation, slowly adding water and taking some away. I also think carrying them around was a bad idea, although I'm sure your intentions were good, all that movement was probably very stressful. Fish should always go straight home. As I said, I would do a large water change in case there is some sort of contamination. If all other tank params are good, I think the only possible causes of the rapid gill movement are stress, contamination, or disease. I don't know your living situation, but in the kitchen where the tank is, are there people constantly flipping the lights on and off? That can shock fish and stress them out.

 

[Big Vine]

I would say that if it were contamination, all fish would eventually die, although some faster than others.

I agree.

I think your acclimation was a little too quick. I always spend a few hours doing my acclimation, slowly adding water and taking some away.

I have never done acclimation as gradually as what you mentioned, but I'm certainly willing to try it if it will help. I'm always torn back and forth between wanting to take my time at the drip acclimation and wanting to just dump the fish into the tank...

Not because I'm impatient, but because of various controversies I've read surrounding introducing new fish to a tank. Some recommend what you said, yet others say the fish will be far better off getting out of the bag as quickly as possible to be in the main tank; claiming that adjusting to virtually all water parameters (with the exception of temperature) takes days anyway.

Any thoughts?

I also think carrying them around was a bad idea, although I'm sure your intentions were good, all that movement was probably very stressful. Fish should always go straight home.

I fully agree.
My trip was poorly-planned, and I'm the only one to blame for it. Next time, I will rush straight home and do a slower acclimation process.

I would do a large water change in case there is some sort of contamination.

But wouldn't the contamination be from something that is already inside the tank (such as the skull or the canyon ornament...only other thing is fake plants and gravel)? (in which case doing a water change would only delay the inevitable)

Also, wouldn't doing a water-change now stress the remaining krib even more, or do you think he's too far gone anyway?

in the kitchen where the tank is, are there people constantly flipping the lights on and off? That can shock fish and stress them out.

Good point.
I had my wife keep the kitchen lights out during the whole acclimation process and into the following morning. The only other time they went on was after the daylight and livingroom lights already illuminated the surrounding area.

Sorry to babble.
I guess my point is that the room-lighting issue is something I considered already, but thanks for the reminder.


I appreciate your help.
All I can do is wait and see if the male pulls through. If so, I can think about getting the replacement for the female. If not, I'm stumped.

Big Vine

 

[Endl98]

sorry to here about the loss of your fish,

i too lost ALOT of my fish, almost all. all my rams died of symptoms of gill flukes, my angels and gouramis died from chilodonella. the rest i have no idea.
never found out. my water params were always good. i thought it was the texas holey rock i had in there, which rose the ph to almost 8.0.
the hardness never got above 200ppm. i wasted alot of money on meds.
nothing in did seemed to work, 25% to almost 100% WC. meds, lights out, every acclimation technique from a drip to 1/4 cup of tank water every 10 min, QT them for weeks.
still lost fish

now im down to scrubbing everything with bleach and starting over.

hope you luck will be better than mine.

 

[MissFishy]

I think that if something is contaminating your tank, it's probably already happened and gotten into the water. By doing a water change it would dilute whatever is in there. If that makes any sense...kind of like if say the skull has polluted the water...all the pollutants have probably already washed off of him and into the water, so by doing a water change it will dilute it. Hmm, I'm not making much sense today. But that is the first thing I would do.

IMO, I think the people the tout getting fish out of bags as quickly as possible are really over emphasizing how bad water conditions can get in a couple of hours in a bag. You have to think, the fish is petrified, probably not eating or pooping normally, and the ammonia levels are really not going to get that high, especially if you are constantly changing and adding water into the bag. The water will stay oxegenated and clean, the only thing the fish have to do is slowly make the change to your PH/hardness/temp, etc. Fishkeeping is an exercise in patience in my book.

 

[Big Vine]

Endl98...sorry about your losses.


MissFishy,

I understand what you mean about the water changes and how the contaminants (if there are indeed any in there) have already washed-off of whatever they came in on.


I decided to move the male krib to my 12 gallon platy tank last night to see if his condition would improve. He stayed under Jericho's cave and guarded it from the platies.

I noticed him gobble up a piece of flake that happened to fall by him during feeding, but he wasn't seeking out food on his own.


I took out the canyon ornament (permanently) out of my soon-to-be krib tank, and did some re-arranging. I've posted pics of the new setup in the Cichlid section of the forum.

I'll be doing a large water-change this morning, and then I plan on getting some danios to put in there. The plan is to see how they do, and then take it from there...

The male krib still has rapid gill movement, so I'm leaning toward getting a new pair of kribs rather than keep a sickly fish; in which case he'll be moved to Jerrica's tank.

Big Vine

 

[Big Vine]

Haven't done the water-change yet, but I did test the tank for the heck of it. The snail is the only occupant currently in the tank.

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0.5 PPM
Nitrates 10 PPM
pH 7.2
Temp. 79 F

Clearly there must still be ammonia present that was converted into the 0.5 PPM Nitrite level, right?


I guess the tank hasn't fully cycled after all?


Either way, I'll be adding some gold danios shortly and let them, along with the snail, finish the cycling of the tank prior to adding in a new pair of kribs.

Big Vine

 

[Big Vine]

I poisoned the Kribs

Argh...I feel so awful.
It turns out my tank hasn't cycled yet after all.


I tested the water yesterday:

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 4-5 PPM
Nitrates 15-20 PPM


I did a water-change last night, and this morning's readings are:

Ammonia 0.25 PPM
Nitrite 5 PPM
Nitrates 15 PPM


In conclusion, I've poisoned my fish by putting them in a cycling tank, and now I feel like a jack-a_ss.

EDIT: Forgot to mention...the male krib died in my 12 gal. platy tank last night. He was already too-far-gone from me having poisoned him.

I didn't do it on purpose though.
I had a cray in there for a while, along with a foam insert from one of my established tanks to help the cycling process. Toxin levels showed up in low numbers at first, but then disappeared---which is why I thought it was cycled.

Sorry to burden you all with my stupidity.
Big Vine

 

[Dan Steveo]

im sorry for your losses and good luck in the future.

 

[MissFishy]

It happens. When I cycle a tank with ammonia, it always seems to have another mini-cycle when I add fish. I've found the most effective thing to do for me is to put some cycled gravel in the new tank.

 

[Big Vine]

I've found the most effective thing to do for me is to put some cycled gravel in the new tank.

Yep...which is exactly what I ended up doing.
Of course, that was after I discovered that the tank hadn't yet quite cycled after having a cray in there for a while, along with filter media from one of my established tanks. (although it had in fact cycled according to my test kits)

Anyway...must have been a mini-cycle. *SICK*

I've got a thread in the Cichlid section of the forum that covers what I've been doing with this tank. Given that I now have an empty 38 gallon tank (set up and filled with water and running filter & heater), my plans for kribs are on hold.

Big Vine