Looking for input...

[Jeff in Chicago]

I'm not a complete beginner as far as aquarium fish are concerned and have had several different tanks over the years (mostly 10 gals), but I'm considering taking the next step and am looking for some input.

I'm thinking about moving up to the next level, starting a 30-gallon tank and, for the first time, live plants.

I've done some research and am probably a few months away from actually starting the tank (something about having to study for the CPA exam between now and then), but I've got a fairly good idea of what kind of fish I'm interested in.

Please take a look at what is a very preliminary thought process and see if you have any guidance about the possible mix of fish and any suggestions for plant species - or, basically, anything else that might be helpful as I start to move towards this project.

Here are the fish I'm considering:

2 Blue Rams (I've had them before and love them - I suppose they're the "feature fish" in this community)
2 Julii Corys (or other corys)
2 Otocinclus (possibly Zebra? guidance on that would be appreciated)
6 Purple Emporer Tetras
And then one other fish - either an Angelicus Botia Loach, Upside Down Catfish, or Flying Fox (guidance amongst the group would be particularly appreciated).

Please let me know if you think that might be too crowded - overcrowding is the last thing I want to do.

Thanks in advance for any tips, suggestions, or help you can offer, and I'm glad to be joining the community!

-Jeff

 

[Lotus]

Welcome to the site

It mostly sounds like a good setup. I have heard that rams and cories don't mix well. Cories are defenseless, and rams get very territorial when they're breeding. I think it would be better if you don't get the cories.

It seems the rams would be your preferred fish. It would be better to add them last to the tank, as they are sensitive, and you need to be sure everything is running perfectly before you add them. It would also help in terms of any aggression, as they won't be the first to claim territory.

If you go for Botia angelicus (kubotai), you need to get a group of at least three of them, which would probably make the tank overcrowded. I think your "extra" fish should be something that's happy on its own.

Zebra otos are nice, but can be hard to find and are more costly than "regular" otos. Otherwise, they're pretty much the same. Nice community fish.

 

[Jeff in Chicago]

Maybe I'll skip the botia and go for the upside down catfish - and perhaps replace the cories with a couple more otos - or is there another bottom feeder I should consider here?

My college tank had 3 rams and 2 cories in it and I didn't have any problems - though the rams were never breeding, either (I made a lot of mistakes with that tank, and ended up giving it away to friends staying in the area when I left Chapel Hill, but at least I didn't notice any conflicts between the rams and cories). I'd rather err on the side of caution, though, so I'm more than willing to skip the cories if there's potential for problems there.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Jeff in Chicago]

Also, does anyone have opinions on freshwater clams?

I know very little about them, but think they'd be an interesting addition if there aren't any potential problems in a planted tank...

 

[Jeff in Chicago]

I had another thought:

What about the 2 rams, and 6 emporers with 3 otos and 3 kuhlis?

Are there concerns in a planted tank about light exposure and the kuhlis?

 

[Jeff in Chicago]

Another question:
If I were to go with 2 rams, 6 emporers, 3 otos, and 3 kuhli loaches, would this be an adequate food regimen:
Mainstays:
high quality flake (brand/type recommendations?)
micro pellet (ditto?)
tubifex
occasional algae tablets as a supplement for the otos

Treats:
freeze-dried bloodworms
frozen and/or live brine shrimp
blanched green vegetables for the otos
maybe occasional daphnia for the tetras

Is there something kuhlis particularly like as a treat that I've missed? Any other recommendations?

 

[Lotus]

The rams/kuhlis/tetas sounds like a good plan.

Clams generally don't work too well in an aquarium. First, there's not a lot for them to eat. Second, some have a stage in which they are parasitic on fish. Third, if they die, they foul your tank, and you won't know until fish start dying.

Your food regimen sounds good. A variety is a good thing. My fish seem to prefer frozen bloodworm to almost anything else as a treat, although they like fozen brine shrimp, too. I don't really have a flake recommendation, most seem to be reasonable quality. I hear good things about New Life Spectrum pellets.

Hopefully someone else will chime in

 

[Jeff in Chicago]

Yeah, I'm feeling just a little lonely here - but I appreciate your input. You've been tremendously helpful.

 

[seastaar88]

Also, does anyone have opinions on freshwater clams?

i've attempted to keep clams and mussles in my tank before (native varieties) and had no success since i can't keep my tank "dirty" enough (since they're filter feeders). you could always try to target feed them with filter feeder food... but i know i'd probably end up fouling my water up more htan anything else.

 

[Jeff in Chicago]

Sounds like the clams would be more trouble than they're worth. I don't have any qualms about nixing that idea.

I'm not sure I'm going to be able to wait until this summer to start - but, between the CPA exam and an apartment move on the horizon, I don't really have a choice.

I think my fiancee would kill me if I bought an aquarium just in time to move it...hehe...

 

[Jeff in Chicago]

To continue the monologue (hehe)...

Would shrimp be compatible with this tank?

 

[geekrockgirl85]

as long as nobody tries to make aquatic spring rolls out of them (and i don't think the fish you've mentioned would...) shrimp should do just dandy in your tank. amano shrimp and cherry shrimp should stay fairly small and provide you with endless hours of entertainment.

bamboo shrimp are also very cool, but they get much bigger and poop like crazy.

as far as food suggestions... i like Omega One flakes.. don't have a micropellet suggestion for you... sorry!

 

[FreshwaterJeff]

Well, time has passed and I've spent more and more time thinking about what to put in my tank. Here's the latest permutation:

2 German Blue Rams
6 Rummynose Tetras (or Black Neons, or another tetra - this changes on an almost daily basis, though I am starting to focus in on these two)
3 Kuhlii Loaches (or 5 Panda Cories, or 2-3 YoYo Loaches...)
3-5 Otos
1 Clown Pleco (or other small pleco, like a rubberlip or bristlenose)

Just thought I'd update you on the thought process. I'm also zeroing in on a 29 gallon long acrylic tank at my LFS, though I'm debating the 36 gallon (trying to figure out if it's worth $25 more)...

 

[FroggyFox]

Hey...I think it'd be totally worth it to go for the extra $25 and the extra space. I know I always wished someone would have told me that before I set up my first tank (10g). Although the 29g tank is a great size, either would be a good first tank.

My fish didn't seem to like the Omega One flakes. I feed most of them Tetramin Pro crisps...they seem to like them. I also have had good success with OSI foods, although I only feed their cichlid flakes regularly to my cichlids...not the rest of my fw fish. I hatch brine shrimp once in awhile to feed to the fish...they all LOVE them, but its not really worth doing too much because brine shrimp have no nutritional value...its best to get some frozen bloodworms and other things to supplement.

As for your stocking...I love cories...they are SO much fun. I think unless you run into some algae issues I'd probably get your pleco and not ottos. Ottos would be something you'd want to add to the tank after its been set up for 6mos to a year after things have stabilized. You might want to look at your tank like having three levels...bottom, middle and top. All of the fish you've chosen except the tetras pretty much occupy the lower level of the tank...and you can run into issues with that. (Like Lotus said with the rams breeding) I'd be more likely to put more on the bottom if it was a larger tank...so there was enough room for the loaches or cories to get out of the rams way and vice versa. Also...you said you're thinking about a 'long' tank...which gives you more of that bottom space so hey maybe you'd be just fine??

You decided if you're going to fishless or fish-in cycle yet?

 

[FreshwaterJeff]

Definitely fishless cycling. MFT has convinced me it's the best way to go

I think you're right - it's worth the extra space for the 36 gallon.

I was definitely thinking I'd add the ottos later, and may pass on them altogether if my tank somehow avoids having algae issues or the pleco takes care of them. That reminds me - do clown plecos really eat wood? If so, I think I'd lean towards a rubberlip or bristlenose...

You're right about my stocking being a little bottom-heavy. Despite the fact that I know Rams like to hang around towards the bottom of the tank, I somehow still think of them as mid-level fish (maybe because they aren't bottom feeders). Any advice on how to balance out the top two thirds of the tank? I guess for now you can consider the ottos at "add if needed later" status, so how might I better spread this out:

2 German Blue Rams
3 Kuhlii or YoYo Loaches
1 Small Pleco species
6 Rummynose Tetras (or black neons)

Any thoughts?

Also, my approach is this: Fishless cycle/add plants, add tetras, let the tank stabilize, add the kuhliis and pleco, let the tank stabilize, add the rams...

 

[FroggyFox]

A lot of (most?) plecos like to rasp wood...its good to have some in their tanks...so thats not really something to pass on the clown for. Personally I've never seen a clown in a lfs here, so you may look at what you have readily available locally, or use some other way of deciding which you'd like to add to your tank. Personally I think I'd go for the bristlenose...they're very cool lookin fish. I have a rubbernose and he's cool...kinda keeps to himself like most plecos and hasn't grown very fast. You may want to try that kind hoping to get the ottos (because they are very cool little guys)?? Lots of things to weigh.

Really the only way to balance a tank out is through the fish you pick Of course with the larger tank I think this most recent plan is great, and you can probably add some more to that school of tetras if you want.

Other thing you can do for more ideas is to check out what other people have in the size of tank you're looking at. In this hobby theres ALWAYS more things to think about and try...and since you dont have your tank yet, even once you get it you'll have awhile while its cycling to make your final fish decisions Have you figured out the types of filtration, lighting etc that you want to use?? The other thing you mentioned you want live plants...so you can start doing research on those and actually start planting your tank while its cycling before you ever get fish.

 

[FreshwaterJeff]

Yep. I'm definitely going to take advantage of the time I have between now and the tank purchase to learn as much as I can and gain guidance from what I see in other peoples' tanks. I've got plenty to keep me busy between now and then (not to mention planning a wedding and trying to pass the CPA), and I'm doing the best to stay patient. At this point, I'm even excited about putting substrate (thinking eco-complete there) in the tank and letting it settle! I'm also thinking I'll keep a tank journal on here, so people can see what I'm doing and tell me when I'm screwing up

My LFS stocks clowns fairly regularly, but I go back and forth between those, the rubberlips, the bristlenoses, and possibly springing for a Queen Arabesque - though maybe that's something to be done later once I have more experience. Somehow, I almost always find myself back at the bristlenoses, and although I don't usually go for albino fish (not sure why), I might do so there. And I'm planning on putting some driftwood in the tank for sure, but I wasn't clear about how much wood the clowns or other plecos actually consume, i.e., whether i'd have to be replacing that piece of wood every few months or so or what.

I'm thinking canister filtration, and I'm working on the lighting needs (found some nice setups on eBay). Beyond that, I'm visiting the LFS regularly to chat with their employees and watch their fish stocks over time (so far, they seem really on top of things) - not to mention the added advantages of becoming known as a regular before I even make my first purchase, something I'm counting on paying dividends in the future.

Thanks for all the guidance and for continuing the conversation. When I don't have a tank to watch, this is almost as good

 

[FreshwaterJeff]

As I am want to do, I've been trying to brainstorm about better filling the top of the tank.

How would a couple killifish do in the top of a tank like this? Would they be ok in water more designed around the rams? Would they pretty much ensure that no fry in my tank that might be born would survive very long?

How about a few splendid blue-eyes instead (I just saw these at my LFS and know almost nothing about them except that they're related to rainbowfish and may or may not prefer brackish environments; might be Pseudomugil connieae or signifer or furcatus)? Does anyone know anything more about them?

Edit: Just read they like more basic water, at 7.0 at the very lowest - so they might not work.

Gosh, I'm full of questions

 

[FroggyFox]

Read up some more on pH Unless you're planning on breeding a fish generally they wont mind living in whatever pH your water is naturally...as long as its stable. I've just never had kribs so I'm not sure on the compatibility with the rams or the tetras.

Hey being full of questions is better than being full of...other things

 

[FreshwaterJeff]

Well, my eyes keep getting bigger.

I've now (almost) decided to go for a 55 gallon - if I'm going to do this, I might as well give myself an ample palate to work from.

With that in mind, here's what I'm thinking:

4 GBR (hopefully 2 male, 2 female)
8-9 Rummynose Tetras
2 BN Plecos (1 male, 1 female)
3-4 YoYo (or Kuhlii) Loaches
5-6 Another school - Columbian Tetras, Cherry Barbs, Green Fire Tetras, Cardinals Tetras, and Black Neons have emerged from the brainstorm so far...

Once I get enough plant cover for them to hide/escape, I'm going to try some shrimp (amano or cherry) - though I realize the danger the rams and yoyos might present to them...

Thoughts?