new tank crash!...WHY??

kboy84

New Fish
Mar 6, 2006
4
0
0
#1
I have a 55g which is filled with synthetic(resin) coral and rocks from an aquarium store. Right now, there are no fish, only 5 hermit crabs that have been cycling the tank for almost 2 months.

Meanwhile, I had 4 fish in q. I gave them 3 formalin baths every 3 days changing out 100% of the water each time. After 3 weeks, I thought they looked ready (no visual parasites). So I needed to top off my main tank and do a water change for the first time to get a desired salinity. I put in about 5 gallons of saltwater (filtered) and 5 gallons of tap(w/ tetra conditioner).
I acclimated them to the 55 in a 5 gallon bucket with 1/4 water full. I dripped in water from the main tank for about an hour, but only till it got half full( I know, not enough:cool: ). The q tank water was at 36ppt, and the main tank was at 31. As soon as the fish were placed in, they looked right at home, already picking off algae from the rocks. So I watched for a while and there were no signs of stress at all. Surprisingly, 3 hours later, I came back to look and ALL of the fish breathing very rapidly, with one lying on the sand. I then put them back into the quarantine tank. Sadly, they all died either that night or the next day.
So now I'm clueless as to why my fish were shocked like that. It can't be physical things like temp or salinity because they werent initially panicking right? I'm thinking something related to the chemistry of the water.
I talked to a few very reliable sources, and some ideas were
1. I acclimated with too little water changes
2. rocks might be releasing toxic substances
3. synthetic corals may be toxic. (they had/still have a strong resin smell, even though I soaked them in fw for 3 days)
4. my big rocks are blocking the ug filter area, causing anaerobic areas.
5. using tap water

If you have any idea what's going on, please let me know!

Sorry this turned into a novel, but I wanted to make sure I didn't leave out any details, as each one may be the cause!
 

kboy84

New Fish
Mar 6, 2006
4
0
0
#3
o yeah, forgot to mention...ammonia and nitrite were both 0, and I didnt test for nitrate.

the rocks are...I have no clue really...just found them at the fish store and assumed they're safe!

I'm using ug because it's illegal to have live rock where I'm at.
 

OCCFan023

Superstar Fish
Jul 29, 2004
1,817
5
0
35
New Jersey
#4
wait its illegal to have LR where you are? where you from man?

My guess would it has to be the nitrAtes. The UGF (will become a nitrate factory) along with no live rock seems to me would create a mass nitraTe problem.

Your acclimation procedure (you did drip method right?) seemed good and I wouldnt think it had anything to do with it.

Using tap water I dont feel would have killed these fish in 3 hours. However using tap with filtration that has the potential to cause a nitraTe problem could be responsible.

When you say synthetic coral do you mean man made or the dead bleached ones? Im not positive about the rocks you have in your tank but if you didnt clean them prior to putting them into the tank they could be suspect.

last Im just curiouse to what type of fish died? Some fish are more peticular to water conditions.
 

kboy84

New Fish
Mar 6, 2006
4
0
0
#5
I'm from Hawaii, and any type of living rock/coral is not allowed in tanks. Yeah, Nitrate is the only thing not tested. I also have a 280gph external filter, with 2 300gph powerheads. I'm wondering if the powerheads are causing too much current for them since they had trouble swimming. I tried adjusting the flow direction, with hardly any difference. The funny thing is that they were all hanging in the same spot(about 6 inches) near a large rock when i noticed them struggling to breathe. Maybe they just got exhausted???
 

OCCFan023

Superstar Fish
Jul 29, 2004
1,817
5
0
35
New Jersey
#7
I really suggest going to the LFS and picking up a nitrate test kit as this seems to be the most reasonable explanation, and if nitrates are low then we will know to find what else is wrong.

what media do you have in the external filter (as again this has the potential to create a mass nitrate problem coupled with the ugf and no lr... nitrate test kit)
 

wayne

Elite Fish
Oct 22, 2002
4,077
3
0
#9
I don't think it was a nitrate problem. But we need a little more info....

Meanwhile, I had 4 fish in q<<good for you>>. I gave them 3 formalin baths every 3 days <<bit harsh, I wouldn't unles they needed it>> changing out 100% of the water each time<<OK>>. After 3 weeks, I thought they looked ready (no visual parasites).<<4 is much ,much safer, 6 is pretty perfect. 3 a little short>> So I needed to top off my main tank and do a water change for the first time to get a desired salinity.<<Why , what was it up to /down to>> I put in about 5 gallons of saltwater (filtered)<<real or artificial>> and 5 gallons of tap(w/ tetra conditioner).<<why do you need to add 5 gallons tap?>>
I acclimated them to the 55 in a 5 gallon bucket with 1/4 water full.<<OK>> I dripped in water from the main tank for about an hour, but only till it got half full( I know, not enough )<<but not too bad>>. The q tank water was at 36ppt, and the main tank was at 31.<<bit low>> As soon as the fish were placed in, they looked right at home, already picking off algae from the rocks. So I watched for a while and there were no signs of stress at all.<<Good>> Surprisingly, 3 hours later, I came back to look and ALL of the fish breathing very rapidly, with one lying on the sand.<<bad, ammonia I bet>> I then put them back into the quarantine tank. Sadly, they all died either that night or the next day. <<gills were trashed from ammonia poisoning, damage>>
So now I'm clueless as to why my fish were shocked like that. It can't be physical things like temp or salinity because they werent initially panicking right? <<correct>>I'm thinking something related to the chemistry of the water. <<but a chemistry problem would immediately manifest itself>>
I talked to a few very reliable sources, and some ideas were
1. I acclimated with too little water changes <<maybe, but you were acclimating DOWN to a lower salinity, and this really isn't a problem for fish. Going up is much harder>>
2. rocks might be releasing toxic substances <<why weren't they immediately affected?>>
3. synthetic corals may be toxic. (they had/still have a strong resin smell, even though I soaked them in fw for 3 days)<<maybe, where dis you get them>>
4. my big rocks are blocking the ug filter area, causing anaerobic areas.<<long term issue>>
5. using tap water <<unlikely to be fatal, usually just causes algae problems>>


Personaly my bet is you mucking around with the salinity killed/compromised all your filter bacteria, and adding the fish caused an ammonia spike which is normally pretty fatal. What fish were they?

As a note I am aware of many people in hawaii who run something closer to a live rock system by making there own live rock, and then seeding it with beach sand/gravel (not illegal). Certianly I do not like UGF's , I think they are a long term p.i.t.a. I can imagine many far beter ways with cannisters, HOBS, sand beds or home made live rock to filter your tank
 

kboy84

New Fish
Mar 6, 2006
4
0
0
#10
thanks wayne, that was really helpful. I was told that hermit crabs aren't efficient enough to cycle a 55 gallon tank. This is probably the reason they died from ammonia? My nitrate level was extremely low, which explains why hardly any ammonia was converted. I don't understand why the fish survived no problem in brand new qtank water, but were poisoned in 3 hours in a 55 gallon running for 2 months...



the saltwater I added is filtered well water from the local aquarium (35ppt).

someone mentioned the sand seeding technique to me before but I dont quite understand it. Could you give me the basic theory of it? thanks a lot.
 

wayne

Elite Fish
Oct 22, 2002
4,077
3
0
#11
No hermits produce too little bioload to create enough ammonia to really help cycle. What I would suggest is that they are a good bioassay- if they die, you really have some problems.

If you don't really have much ammonia or oganics going into the system, then you won't get much nitrate produced. It doesn't just appear, it needs raw materials.

I don't get what posioned them after 3 hours - if it was a toxin from the ornaments I'd expecit to take immediate effect. I'm still betting ammonia, but there are other options.

What's in the tank now - do you have any pieces of local rock? I am sure you are well area all of hawaii is cmposed of volcanic rocks, and these aren't too stable in seawater, andmight well be exuding a metal toxin? In the sea this likely won't be a big issue (dilution) but in a confined aquarium it might well be. I would pull those out.

I would have a scout round the local aquaria shops, web pages. Find ou what ohter people are doing to produce live rock equivalents.

As far as seeding goes, that's easy. Get your butt down down to a nice clean looking beach, and get a decent sized pot of sand that's been from below the waterline. Not dry beach sand. If you can find a beach near a small reef, that's even better. This is to provide starter cultures of bacteria.
 

wayne

Elite Fish
Oct 22, 2002
4,077
3
0
#12
Looking again at your kit I'd pull the UGF and just leave a half inch of sand in the base. This plus the water movemnet will be an easier way to provide filtration
 

wayne

Elite Fish
Oct 22, 2002
4,077
3
0
#14
Lowering nitrates is a decent reason to run a deep sand bed, and makes it quite a good idea. To be pedantic, what do you think it does for gas exchange?