New tank + forgetfulness + poor preparation, hoping for confirmation of the problem

[Rotaripsnoc]

Hello, first post, hope to be first of many, with future ones being happier.

I've had green spotted puffers, and various other brackish and freshwater fish, but that was many years ago, and I forgot to cycle the tank first.

02/09/13 - The tank was setup Jack was very clean and happy - pic attached.
02/12/13 - The tank was becoming cloudy and had a foul odor, I believe I was over feeding - completely changed out water, added a few places for him to hide until we get a larger tank, noticed a small patch of scales discoloring near his fin, and the tips of his dorsal slightly discolored.

Decreased feeding, odor still lingering slightly, decreased significantly from 02/13

02/16/13 - noticed patch of scales darkening, and gills and body reddening. Researched symptoms, believed to be high ammonia levels due to un-developed cycles. cycled out 50 % of the tank water, changed filter.

02/18/13 - increasing blackening no further odor in tank, replaced filter - however I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not - if bacteria are growing or not the water has very few if any particles visible - old filter pic attached, as well as current coloration of Jack.

* I was unable to add attachments, so I've shared a link from my dropbox account

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2q7znmdhu27xiuv/zHSbrVWrlB


I have a few questions, am I correct in thinking this is a result of high ammonia ?
*I do not have a test kit, I have one on order both in a store and online that should be here soon, the local fish store and Walmart are both out.

If this is ammonia and not black spot, if he survives, will the discoloration heal over ?

Is the brown on the filter a bacterial growth, would it be of any benefit to replace it in the filter ?

If the filter was benefiting, now that it's been removed should I replace 30 % of the water every few days ?

 

[FishDad]

The cloudyness was a bacteria bloom, an essential part of the cycle. Brown on the filter is a good thing, that is the nitritfying bacteria. It doesn't really grow in the water, but on the hard surfaces so water changes will never affect that. Here is how I would proceed...

- Do a 50% wc. Detox chlorine and ammonia with Seachem Prime
- Purchase a Seachem alert card for about 7 bucks. Place in the tank to get realtime ammonia readings.
- 25% wc's every day after that until ammo card stops detecting ammonia and test kit stops registering nitrites.

Can't help you with blackspot, sorry.

 

[Thyra]

Welcome to the forum. There is more info we need. - like what size is the tank and what temp are you keeping it at? Do you understand cycling? Is Jack the only fish in the tank?

Your goal will be to have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and about 20 nitrates when testing. In order to maintain that goal you will be doing partial water changes as frequently as necessary - maybe daily. Keep reading and keep asking questions! There is a lot of good info on this forum.

 

[Rotaripsnoc]

Thanks FishDad, I did a 50 % wc last night, my web order should be in today, I live in a very small town, with poorly stocked supplies. I ordered both a ph card and ammonia card, thinking real time would be better than testing until I get the knack of it.

@Thyra, thank you for your response.
I do have a tank heater, however I've not had it on, the room temperature is 70-74, led hood and the tank temp has stayed at 78-79 consistently.

It is a 10 gal tank, my wife purchased a 40 gal for me for Valentines day so Jack will be moving there once it arrives and a fish-less cycle completes.

Jack is the only fish, there are 2 golden apple snails both about 1" in the tank also and a few ghost shrimp that he has not eaten yet, the other 4-5 were less fortunate.

I have a reasonably good understanding of cycling, I changed the tank water when it was very cloudy because what I had read was that it was likely due to over feeding, jack was also very inactive, and his gills and sides were very pink. After changing the tank he became much more active, and returned to being mostly pearly white, though now he is starting to show redness around his gills again + the black spots.

He is however much more active than he had been. I've reduced the food he receives to what he will eat in about 1-2 minutes once to twice a day, ( was feeding 3 x a day ) Thus far there is no odor from the tank, and the water has remained very clear, there is a ring of brown crusty residue beginning to form on the tankside filter.

I'm not sure what is causing the black spots and discoloration, if I should remove the inverts and treat for black spot ? the area's where he has black spots do not appear to be raised, or bumping as I'd expect from what I've read if it was a fungal or bacterial disease.

I've read that it can be from stress, or high ammonia levels also, without being able to test the water, I was hoping for "it looks like ______"

 

[Rotaripsnoc]

Today the seachem cards arrived, after about an hour this is what they showed:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2q7znmdhu27xiuv/zHSbrVWrlB

Ammonia 0.02-0.05 ppm
PH ~8.0 ?

being that jack is a Parrot, I believe an undyed jellybean variant, a higher ph should be fine for him, correct ?

 

[FishDad]

The PH wouldn't be affecting him greatly. Your ammonia is slightly high, but you need to be able to test for nitrites. I would bet they are high right now. Daily water changes my friend.

 

[Rotaripsnoc]

Understood, and you're probably right, with ammonia being less than I expected it has to be going somewhere. I have no problem with water changes, I'm more concerned about his welfare at the moment, nitrite tests should be in soon. Thanks for your advice, and re-assurance.

 

[Omnominator]

The pink gills=ammonia

 

[Rotaripsnoc]

Testing strips came in today, posted pics of results, as well as a video of jack, he is turning darker now, I've read that this can be part of the healing process after ammonia burns, any thoughts on this ?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2q7znmdhu27xiuv/zHSbrVWrlB

Before 30 % water change

• Ammonia < 0.05
• Nitrites ~ 3
• Nitrates ~0
• Temperature 78-79

After water change

• Ammonia ~ 0.03
• Nitrites ~ 2
• Nitrates ~0
• Temperature 78-79

I've added a couple of plants to the tank to hopefully help with the nitrites also, a philodendron with a branch in the water to root out, as well as some bamboo with leave sticking out of the water.

Both from what I've read are safe for Jack, both very well cleaned before introducing to the tank. Any thoughts or comments ? I know there are better plants for the Nitrite > Nitrate cycle however no one locally has them available.

I do have another question:

Since I'm removing some of the bacteria used for the ammonia and nitrate cycles it's going to take a while longer to establish the cycles. If I were to set up a smaller 3 gal tank and use some of the water I remove to fill it with, keeping it fish less and feeding it every other day, it should develop a complete nitrite cycle faster ? If so would it be harmful to re-introduce some of this water into Jacks tank, or is it better for the nitrite > nitrate bacteria to develop on their own ?

 

[Thyra]

The beneficial bacteria is not in the water - it is mostly in the substrate, filter material and on solid surfaces. Until you have nitrates your tank is not cycled. (It is a nitrAte cyel- not a nitrIte cyle). If you had an already cycled tank you could exchange filter material or perhaps some substrate in a nylon sox to help things along. Unfortunately I can't be helpful about Jack or what he needs right now.

 

[Thyra]

Whoops my mistake! Its the Nitrogen cycle. Sorry!

 

[Rotaripsnoc]

I appreciate all of the input and help, this is a great forum.

Ammonia levels are virtually gone, Nitrites are staying between 2 and 3 with 30 % water changes, and the Nitrate indicator is just starting to turn, maybe a few more days and the cycle will be complete.

Jacks Gills are no longer pink, and he is hiding more, in a glazed pot and not resting on the bottom of the tank, so hopefully he's getting better, he still is active, but very timid to anyone walking by.

 

[Rotaripsnoc]

Jack is nearly back to his normal coloration, I'll add some pics later.

Ammonia is virtually gone
Nitrites fluctuate between 1 and 2
Nitrates are not really showing up yet

Mon: Nitrites were at about 2 performed a partial change, after change Nitrites were about 1.5
Tues: Nitrites were about 1.5, skipped a water change
Wed: Nitrites are at 1.5

NitrAtes have not really increased, they are far below 20.

I have increased feeding slightly, all levels are remaining virtually the same. I guess the bamboo and philodendron are keeping the nitrites down since there is very little change in the nitrate reading.

 

[FreshyFresh]

Yikes.. ~2ppm nitrites is lethal to most fish. More so than ammonia. It sounds like your tank is still in the very early stages of cycling. No nitrates means you've got a ways to go yet.

With fish in the tank, you should add the appropriate amount of Prime (or the likes) to 'detox' the nitrites and do water changes until they go away.

IMO, If you have to leave fish in the tank, I'd do a 90% water change, add dechlorinated water and one of the off the shelf "starter" products. This will still require daily (or more) water parameter testing and lots of water changes.

 

[Rotaripsnoc]

Wednesday Nitrites stayed at 1-1.5 No water change, fed snails 2 cucumber slices in tank
Thursday, Nitrites are 0 - 0.5 ppm Nitrates are still slowly climbing. until nitrates begin to rise above 20 ppm I do not anticipate a need for further water changes

 

[FreshyFresh]

Water changes should be done until nitrites = 0ppm.

 

[Rotaripsnoc]

Thursday Nitrites continued to lower, Nitrates are slowly increasing.
Friday - around noon today Jack started looking orange...
Nitrites < 1ppm
Nitrates < 20 ppm
Ammonia: does not register.

no other changes made to the tank, he seems to be itchy, rubbing his sides on tank decorations, and darting around the tank. No visible signs of Ich, or golden specks on his flakes to indicate Velvet.

I'm not ignoring FreshyFresh I performed a 30 % water change for good measure, tested a few hours later, nitrites were up to 2 ppm, tested the tap, both treated, and untreated for chlorine \ chloramine, non tank water tested 0 nitrites 0 nitrates, by this time (about 30 min) tank water tested about 3 ppm for nitrites.

I vacuumed the gravel, tested some of the water being pulled off, nitrites were 0.1-0.5 ppm, performed a 90 % water change. nitrites are at 2 ppm again, and have been all evening...

I'm not sure the cause of the sudden spike after a 30 % wc. Jack is however back to being a pink \ white color, he is still rubbing against tank decor though. I'm guessing ich may be developing from the stress of being in a new tank cycle. Should I treat for Ich without visible signs ?

 

[FishDad]

Not ich. Your tank is not cycled. Those high amounts of nitrites are what is causing him to act like that. Daily water changes and testing, you'll get there.

It may have been stated earlier but what type of test kit are you using?

 

[Rotaripsnoc]

I sat beside jack for about an hour, around 4 in the morning, I noticed the appearance of white nodules on his fins and upon closer inspection the rest of his body was showing several tiny while bumps, they were not fuzzy but well defined about the size of a pin head.

Taking a chance I've begun treating for Ich, using Jungle Ich tablets, I read they are less potent than QuICK cure drops, but also less harsh on the fish.

3/2/13:

• Ammonia: 0 ppm
• Nitrites: < 0.5 ppm
• Nitrates: < 10 ppm
• Temp 79 F
• Activity: Lethargic, on several occasions I found him leaning against items in the tank, no movement other than his gills. Added an air stone to tank, decreased water level by 1 gal so HOB would stir the water more.
  • 5 AM: began medicating the water for treatment of Ich, performed 60 % water change, removed carbon from HOB filter.
  • 6 AM: found Jack on top of water heater nose down tail up, respiration looked strained, removed another gal of water
  • 6:30 AM: Jack was now at the bottom of his tank, leaning about 30 degrees against the side, no fin movement. Went to bed.
  • 9:45 AM: woken by wife to ask where Jack was at. Found Jack in a pot against a side at the top.
  • 10:00 AM: Placed some food in the tank, 2 ghost shrimp hungrily ate, Jack however was not interested in food.
  • 2 PM: Jack was resting on the bottom of the tank, however he no longer floated or sat with an angle, tail fin moving slightly in the water, white specks still visible on him.
  • 3 PM: fed the tank very little to see if he would eat, still no interest, swam to his pot.
  • 8 PM: Walked by, finding Jack swimming about mid level in the tank, more active than he had been in a few days. Fed tank again, still had no interest in eating.
    • 0 Ammonia
    • 0.5 Nitrites
    • < 10 Nitrates

3/3/13:

• Ammonia: 0 ppm
• Nitrites: 0.0 ppm
• Nitrates: < 5 ppm
• Temp: 80 F
• Activity: Lethargic, has stayed in his pot, near the bottom so far.
  • 9 AM Performed 25 % water change, offered some food, did not seem interested. Continued treatment for Ich, He is currently resting on his pelvic fins, moving his peck and tail fins along with his gills.

@ fishdad
Jungle 5 in 1 strips + a Seachen ammonia card
I have an API master test kit on order from amazon.

 

[FishDad]

Well with that new info it appears he does have ich. Be cautious with treatment as he will already be weakend from the tank params. When that liquid test kit gets there you will be able to get more accurate results.