new to the hobby, requesting feedback/comments on my initial setup thoughts

[aixenv]

hello all, thanks for all the informative threads/posts i've been reading

below is my thought process/plan for my tank

location in Manhattan Beach (near LA) so im not sure i need a heater for the water? (correct me if i'm wrong)

steps to successful setup:

1) i have a 36.5in long x 31.6 high x 16in wide glass tank

2) i have a black hood and stand ordered and on the way

3) I've researched gravel versus sand, and am going to go with black sand, i like the way it looks plus it seems sand is normally preferred

4) im getting some fiji live rock from the wholesaler in the area, going to find out if it's cured or not cured, it's in a box so i am assuming it's already cured; either way i'll make sure i get cured.. im not sure how much i need but sounds like 1lb for every 1gallon of water so maybe 60-65lbs worth

5) going to get the water in the tank (duh heh)

6) the guy at the fish store said be patient and go slow...im fighting the urge to jump into this too quickly hehe...i wanted to get an eel and he said eels are pretty tough so they should be ok right away, and then im going to get 5-6 damsels/cheap fish to start the process of making the tank "ready"..levelling out bacteria/other levels (not an expert correct me feel free)..

7) im told with LR and a protein skimmer ill have no need for a pump or filter is this accurate? is that enough to filter the water properly? and again what is a really good protein skimmer for this type of setup/scenario

let 3-4 wks go by and add 1 fish of the quality i want

the main fish i want in here is a volitan lionfish; still doing my research on what they like/dont like etc..but when a fish might cost 60-300 bucks (some of the others i liked were pretty pricey heh). i want to make sure i have the best setup to not have dead fish

the hood should have flourescent bulbs..so i should be ok with that for now...

im interested in probably 2-3 weeks after i add the first lionfish to upt some live coral in there, as i understand they need even better filtering and quality of setup

after im with the lionfish , eel, and depending how my other smaller fish are doing (possibly eaten?)...im going to then have at most 5-6 more fish all big enough so they wont be targets by the lionfish

my questions are as follows:

1) whats a good quality protein skimmer for a 65g tank?
2) any recommendations for lighting before/after live coral?
3) does my timeline seem sufficient?
4) am i missing anything ? (obviously i know i need test kits, and other means to measure my ph,and other levels in the water)
5) is 1lb of LR per 1g an accurate thought?
6) with a 65g tank is a lionfish, eel and 4-5 other fish plus live coral too much for that size tank?

well i look forward to the responses and look forward to learning about this hobby, my parents always did this, and i always enjoyed it although they did fresh water.. i wanted to instead try my hand at SW due to the fact i really like the volitan lionfish...any thoughts/recommendations/suggestions are appreciated

aixenv

 

[Airborneguy]

1) Skip the damsels... its my one big regret with my current tank, and I will never have them again. If you REALLY want them, defiantely don't do so many.

2) If you are talking about regular flourescent bulbs, you won't have enough light. Corals need strong light. Do you have specifics on the light you are getting? You might be better off not wasting the money and just getting the right one right away if you are set on having corals.

3) 3-4 weeks into the hobby, and with your tank being that young also, is probably not the time to get a lion... I learned that lesson with my first saltwater tank with the same fish...

 

[aixenv]

hey not sure about the type of lights just yet, my girlfriend just went by the fishstore she's used for many years and this is the list of stuff he suggested to start with, is this overkill or a good setup? i am not sure what model of the protein skimmer but i do know it's an ASM with the pump, also he's saying get a filter with bioballs ..is that needed?

im assuming the 1-24 is 1 24inch light fixture for the hood, is that sufficient with the tank being 36.5 inches long?

stuff to get:

item: price
----------
shark filter (model/brand?) - 270
pump return 3100 - 90
return tube 15
pro skimmer w/pump (asm) - 160
heater - 40
2 bags of salt - 32
1 - 24 fixture - 40
bulb - 12
coral sand 40lb - 40

 

[Lotus]

Definitely don't get any fish until your live rock has been in the tank for a few weeks. Test the water for ammonia and nitrites, and don't add fish until they're both at zero. Damsels are definitely not needed or wanted in a new setup.

You'll need to read up a little about lighting before you dive into corals. You'll probably need either a T5 HO (high output) with 4 or 6 bulbs, or a metal halide system (either will probably cost around $400 or more). I'd say a 36" fixture would be better.

I don't know what the Shark Filter is. If you want corals, get a sump/refugium setup, not a sump with bioballs. The bioballs can contribute to nitrates, which are deadly to corals.

 

[aixenv]

thank you for the information, let's say for now i am not really concentrating on coral as that's the the last phase and could be months away, do i still need a filter? ive read quite a few places that LR + a protein skimmer was sufficient and even preferred for a SW setup

thoughts?

 

[Lotus]

In general, a canister filter isn't a good thing for a saltwater tank. Either go for a sump/refugium (best) or powerheads and protein skimmer (OK).

The only "Shark" filter I could find with a Google search is an internal filter for terrariums, which sounds like a really bad idea.

 

[aixenv]

lotus,

yeah i agree, im going to contact the place tomorrow to get a brand/model and research what it's actually about, i notice you're in socal also, any recommendations for stores? i've been all over , manhattan beach, redondo beach, inglewood, pasadena, etc, supposedly there's some nice wholesale fish places although i dont know where, do you?

 

[Lotus]

Sorry, I'm out in the desert, and don't really know the stores in your area. You could check out: Southern California Marine Aquarium Society They have a list of stores here: SCMAS Sponsoring Vendors

To be honest, wholesalers aren't where you want to go. You should try for good local fish stores that look after their livestock well and give good service.

 

[Lorna]

From what I gather your main plan here is to have a fish only with live rock set up. The fish part will be an eel? and a volitan lion. Both messy eaters creating lots of waste so a good protein skimmer is essential with good flow created by power heads. If the eel you are considering is a snowflake....which is probably the only one you could put in a 65 then be concerned with escapement. These guys are brilliant escape artists and will even venture down an overflow into the sump. You will need a very tight fitting lid and temp control may be of concern. The lion will need to wait a bit as will the eel until your tank is matured, the rock you can get from a wholesaler and btw....if it is in a box, it is definitely not cured and will have a fair amount of die off and will need to be cured which you can do directly in your tank only during the initial set up as it will create a lot of ammonia while curing and if you decide to do it this way, invest in some air freshners..... once the rock is cured and the parameters are measuring zero then you can think about livestock. A hood light (needs to be 36 inch) is sufficient with just fish/eel in tank.....but will need to be upgraded down the road if placing corals or other light sensitive animals. You may need a cleanup crew such as snails/hermits/ sand cleaners.......once you are cycled.

 

[aixenv]

thank you for your advice, i did some research on what types of fish /critters i want in my tank and thus far im confident i want a volitan lionfish and snowflake eel, both are condusive to the type of environment/size i'll have according to a few websites ive read; i do want coral in the long run i'm just taking this one step at a time

after more research im thinking for lighting to go with

36" 6x39W Nova Extreme PRO T5HO 3x10k/3x460nm
Actinics by Current USA* 275-300ish bucks

im still not sure on the filtering side of things some ppl say go live rock others say get sump/refugium, i did some reading on both, and im just not sure which way to go

i dont also mind paying more money to have a self filtering tank it seems you can get a refugium to cycle water thus making it not necessary to change water as much

also with a lionfish im not sure what kind of cleanup crew i could have, i was looking at some youtubes of lionfish and they were eating the cute lil cleaner shrimp which look so cool i wanted one of those too heh

 

[Lotus]

Cleaner shrimp don't actually clean the tank, they clean parasites/dead scales off fish. The probably won't make it with the lionfish. Snails are really good as a cleanup crew, much better than crabs or hermit crabs.

 

[Lorna]

I agree with lotus, a collection of snails will do more to clean up with less predating on each other that a mix that includes hermits and crabs. I would lean towards a mix of nassarius (sand cleaners) turbos, astreas, nerite and cerith snails.

I think you are confusing your filterign methods. Most have live rock in the display and add a refugium/sump for extra water volume and stability. It is also a place to hide filters and skimmers so they are not in the main display. The display will need to house powerheads though for water movement which aids in oxygen exchange and keeps detritus is suspension to be removed by the protein skimmer. In other words you will definitely need live rock and a sump/refugium is a nice added extra.

 

[aixenv]

well i started payment of all the stuff im getting, ends up i have a friend who knew a fish store owner and they are cutting me a sweet deal, i got an estimate from a local fish store and took it to them and they knocked off 400 bucks, so for 1000 bucks im getting the following:

1) 37 inch black stand with lip
2) matching black canopy
3) 2 sets of 36inch T5 lighting
4) 50lbs of live rock (cured)
5) 2 bags of live sand
6) wet/dry filter with sump (filter and sump setup on bottom of stand)
7) rio 2500 pump
8) corallife super skimmer 125 has needle wheel ( gonna sit in the sump )
9) an overflow with return/check valve
10) heater
11) hydrometer & refractometer
12) 3 power heads

what's even cooler is they are coming by this friday to set everything up, so i figure 3-4 wks and ill have fish

either way after pricing stuff the last 2-3 wks, getting quotes of 1500, 1600, 1400, and 1300, to get all of that for 1000 makes my day

im really excited about getting the ball rolling

as soon as i have everything setup ill make sure to take some picts, thanks for the help and advice

 

[dendro982]

If I may add what was important to me in setup:

1) 2 heaters, instead of 1. Less wattage, but in case of failure the overheating will be less (fish will be not cooked). In case if it stops heating, the other one will continue working.

2) If you can, get another box of live rock, it will help you with nitrates a lot. Your tank is 75-90g, right? I have 40lb and 50lb boxes of LR, plus alive live rock in 90g, only the last 40lb made a difference.

Fiji LR: my Fiji LR is very open, consists from the interconnected finger-thick branches, that not helped too much with nitrates. Either because of amount, either because it too open. Try to get some solid pieces 7"+ in size.

About boxed LR: my boxed CaribSea rock ($2/lb) was dried LR, that required curing, and box was clearly marked so. If your is boxed, not in tank with changed water and flow, it may require curing too - to remove dieing pieces. Better be safe, than sorry.

Check the ammonia first week. You will have the test kits, right? Salifert in upper range, API as good and cheap.

3) What salt mix, or already prepared water will you use? If mix by yourself, it's will be good to add 3 buckets to delivery (for preparing 150g of water each). I'm impressed with Tropic Marin Pro, but using mainly IO and Red Sea. Note, that you may get it at half price during the Christmas time sale. I'm buying as much as I can then.

You will need water, RO from hardware store machine, bottled distilled water, or buy RO/DI unit.

4) Damsels and eels: if I was on your place, I would avoid these. Most fishes are reasonably though, choose what you really like and place them in already cycled water. You can use invertebrates, like snails and hermit crabs, for the earlies stages. Later they will work as a clean-up crew.

5) Volitan lionfish: it will grow very big, up to 14" long and wide (with fins) and you will have only 36" long, 16" wide tank. Even to turn freely, it will need 20"+ wide tank. Don't ask, how do I know . I had volitan too, but the biggest fish in the 90g tank was flattened vertically with no long fins, and was only 1/5 of the tank length. It was really bad, it had no place to burst ahead, as it accustomed to do, playfully turn, and burst back... Count Edmond Dantes in his cell.

Slightly smaller sized lionfishes, like Mombassa and Antennata, are more colorful, but less majestic, tend to jump out of the tank eventually, sensitive to water quality (but not too much), and may have trouble with weaning to the frozen food. This means live feeders, it costs a lot, requires regular trips to LFS and is not good for the lion's health in a long run.

Cost of volitan: here, where I'm, they are most common, usually cost not higher, than $50 (unless they are the really big), I had seen a couple of times the small ones for $27. They grow fast: in months, not years.

If you can, try to keep not too high light in tank with lionfish, then you could see it swimming during the day, not only hiding from the light in the cave (you know, that it needs caves and perches, right?). Frank Marini (the author of main article on keeping lionfishes) says, that this is age related.

6) Timing: I would wait a couple of months, before adding lionfish. During this time you have to make sure, that there is no ammonia in the water, and may add cleanup crew, corals, other invertebrates and fish.

7) Tankmates for lionfish: it depends on particular lionfinsh, but eventually not only the cleaner shrimp, but even the hard shelled blood shrimp may get eaten, even after a couple of years in the same tank, same with chromises. Percula clown and damsel are still alive, but they are very wise and fast. No cleaner wrasse in the same tank.

I would vote for having more corals and invertebrates, than fish, because the lionfish will require space for uninterrupted swimming and not to be bothered by bullying big fish or a daring here and there the small ones. Think about this as about getting the royal person or a philosopher in your tank, rock-n-roll company will bother it.

Porcelain crab was good, emerald crabs, hermit crabs (from small to big), they come in different colors, you have quite a choice. Snails.

8) Number of the fish for 65g tank:
Eel: check the adult size, it should be able to move in the tank.
Lionfish: your choice, but I would exclude volitan, radiata, antennata. Maybe mombassa, zebra (looks the same, only solid striped fins), fuzzy dwarf. Fu manchu is (sorry) ugly and, as I had read, could be finicky.
Other fish: 5 small will be OK, but not too fast or aggressive.

9) Powerheads: choose, which ones will more suit your needs.
You may get Maxi-Jet 1200 (~290 gph, strong jet, able to push away the unsuspecting middle-sized lionfish), it uses a lot of power for a produced gph, but now the mod kits are widely available, allowing to have 1200 gph from single powerhead (too much for a lionfish tank, IMHE).

Koralia (wide soft flow, efficient power consumption for a produced gph) has too open grid, and if the lion decides to rst on it and the ray will stick into the pump - it may be broken.

Seio (wide soft flow, efficient) 620 (600 gph, 2 of them) created no problem for the mombasa in my tank. But some people don't like them.

10) I would also get emergency ammonia neutralizer (I have Seachem Prime, not too impressed, maybe there are better kinds), activated carbon (1g), phosphate remover (RowaPhos, PhosBan, even PhosGuard was good for me), 800 Current USA micron bags for carbon and phosguard, or $40 Two Little Fishes reactor for RowaPhos or PhosBan.

A couple of 250 micron Current USA filter media bags, just to have them in case if you will need mechanical prefiltration at the sump entrance, they are cheap.

Also alkalinity supplement, like Kent Reef Buffer (or something like that). You likely will need it quite soon.

Whew! (Mopping sweat). I hope you don't mind the long posts, as long as they may be useful

 

[Lorna]

A few comments re the above post:

If you can, get another box of live rock, it will help you with nitrates a lot. Your tank is 75-90g, right? I have 40lb and 50lb boxes of LR, plus alive live rock in 90g, only the last 40lb made a difference.

General rule of thumb here is 1lb per gallon and probably up to 2 lbs per gallon depending on where the rock comes from and the porosity of the rock.

Fiji LR: my Fiji LR is very open, consists from the interconnected finger-thick branches, that not helped too much with nitrates. Either because of amount, either because it too open. Try to get some solid pieces 7"+ in size.

The purpose of the live rock is it acts as a place for beneficial bacteria to populate and to create anerobic areas where it can convert nitrates to nitrogen deep within the small dead air pockets within the rock. The porosity of fiji or marshall island rock is great and is sought after for this purpose as you will obtain more surface area per pound of rock hence your needed pound per gallon using these types of rock are less. So smallish solid pieces are not the best but open branchy pourous rock is

About boxed LR: my boxed CaribSea rock ($2/lb) was dried LR, that required curing, and box was clearly marked so. If your is boxed, not in tank with changed water and flow, it may require curing too - to remove dieing pieces. Better be safe, than sorry.

If the rock is dry it is not "live rock" the live part refers to the beneficial bacteria that populate the rock and need to be wet to be alive. Any rock left in the open air for any length of time will no longer be "live rock" The life that I believe you are referring to is the various life forms that often populate some live rock and any time out of water will surely have some die off and will require "curing" Curing refers to the process of your rocks life going through the nitrogen cycle......from dead to decaying creating ammonia and then the conversion of the ammonia by bacteria to nitrite and then to nitrate. If your rock is bone dry and has not smell to it, then it is considered base rock and requires no curing. It can be placed in the tank along with some live rock to seed it and it will become live after time as will any rock added to a tank that has gone through a cycle and has some live rock in it.......though the ratio of base rock to live rock will determine the length of time it will take for the base rock to become in effect "live rock"

I hope this clarifies this subject for you.....it can be a confusing subject.

 

[dendro982]

Thanks, Lorna.
Here is image of the Reef Bones and instructions on its box:

 

[Joe Fish]

Basically anything you put in your tank will cause it to go through a smaller cycle.

 

[Lorna]

ahh reef bones I belive are usually comprised of dried reef rock which isn't really live rock as it is actually base rock and as such is a great base to be seeded with actual live rock. It is an economical way to get rock into your aquascape but remember as it isn't live yet it can't be relied on to provide the denitrification that actual live rock will provide from the start. It will take time for this rock to become repopulated with the beneficial bacteria. That is probably why you didn't see any change in your nitrates once you added it, though you will but it will take time to become seeded and become live. I am sure the curing they talk about is due to some decay that may still come about due to detritus trapped deep inthe rock. It is a good buy but if you can get actual live rock from an existing reefer for a good price that would be the route to go I think. I bought 150lbs of marshall island rock from Premium Aquatics for about $5.50/lb....it was cured and virtually cycled my tank overnight.

 

[Lorna]

On that overnight remark.....the rock was fully cured, the tank had been sitting with water and a dead cocktail shrimp in it for a week before adding the rock which was only out of water for less than 2 hours. I carefully monitored for any ammonia spike and never saw one......added a cleanup crew 2 weeks later.

 

[aixenv]

wow thanks for all that awesome info, i decided to go with a new tank as the guy who was giving me the taller one wanted 200 bucks for that, and that was rediculous , so this one will be the same length, width, and 24inch tall, so only really lost 8 inches in height and the glass will probably be thinner now, AND brand new

the guy is delivering all my stuff and setting it up today yay!

one question: i believe the new tank is 50-55 gallons, for a protein skimmer should i go with the ASM G-1 or a corallife protein skimmer 65?

he suggested the asm g-mini but .. for some reason i dont like the sound of "mini" so i'd opt for a bit bigger and get the g-1, price is basically the same, thoughts?