Overflow > Canister
- Thread starter Masta_Cheef
- Start date
I wouldn't think so. Once there's water in the pipe from the overflow, no air can get into the canister until I either stop the water return from the sump causing the tank to overflow (if I didn't turn off the pump from the sump). It'd be more efficient my way, wouldn't you think?
Tank > Canister > Sump > Return to tank
rather than
Tank > Sump > Canister > Sump > Return to tank
Maybe you're right, though.
Tank > Canister > Sump > Return to tank
rather than
Tank > Sump > Canister > Sump > Return to tank
Maybe you're right, though.
well you would need an overflow and downtube big enough to constantly keep the water flow enough for the canister so that it doesn't start sucking any air. So yes it can be done, but it may take a bit of trial and error to get the flow rates right from the overflow. If your using a drilled tank with built in overflows it will probably be easier than a HOB overflow. At least I would think it would be.
I've seen several that use a canister as the return pump from the sump and it seems to work well for them. You could set it up like your second choice there, but why add an extra pump to return the water when you don't have too.
The only thing with the canister being at the end of the filter is that your bio media may get dirty quicker. Best way to resolve this is to use some type of pre-filter to catch the big stuff before it gets to the bio-media, and save the canister for the more fine filtering of the water.
Another thing I just thought of with the canister being first in line is that you are going to then have to pretty well match up the return pump size from the sump with your canister so that the canister doesn't run dry and you don't over flow the sump with water. IMO the less pumps you can get away with in a sump the better off and safer you are.
I've seen several that use a canister as the return pump from the sump and it seems to work well for them. You could set it up like your second choice there, but why add an extra pump to return the water when you don't have too.
The only thing with the canister being at the end of the filter is that your bio media may get dirty quicker. Best way to resolve this is to use some type of pre-filter to catch the big stuff before it gets to the bio-media, and save the canister for the more fine filtering of the water.
Another thing I just thought of with the canister being first in line is that you are going to then have to pretty well match up the return pump size from the sump with your canister so that the canister doesn't run dry and you don't over flow the sump with water. IMO the less pumps you can get away with in a sump the better off and safer you are.
Well, my idea is pretty much like this;
Have the tank water flow from the overflow (by way of gravity) into the canister. Have the canister filter and polish the water, pump it into the sump. Have a pump return the water from the sump back into the tank. It's sort of like a closed circuit, and all of the water would be filtered in this manner.
I'm not sure if you understood my little diagram there and it was prolly my fault because of it.
Tank > Canister > Sump > Return to tank <--This is my idea
rather than
Tank > Sump > Canister > Sump > Return to tank <-- This is what I'm trying to avoid
The whole reason behind all of this is because I'm setting up a paludarium sometime in the future, and need a way to filter the water effectively and efficiently. I figure a canister fits the bill.
Have the tank water flow from the overflow (by way of gravity) into the canister. Have the canister filter and polish the water, pump it into the sump. Have a pump return the water from the sump back into the tank. It's sort of like a closed circuit, and all of the water would be filtered in this manner.
I'm not sure if you understood my little diagram there and it was prolly my fault because of it.
Tank > Canister > Sump > Return to tank <--This is my idea
rather than
Tank > Sump > Canister > Sump > Return to tank <-- This is what I'm trying to avoid
The whole reason behind all of this is because I'm setting up a paludarium sometime in the future, and need a way to filter the water effectively and efficiently. I figure a canister fits the bill.
A normal overflow system does rely on gravity to get the water to the filter, but if you add a canister to the very front of the filter then gravity may not be enough to keep enough water feeding into the canister because the canister's intake is going to be sucking water in mechanicly, unless you don't plan to actualy turn the canister on, which I would think would defeat the purpose of it because a 3 foot fall will not give the water enough pressure to make it thought the canister alone. I understand your diagrams, but I'm just not sure that I'm explaining correctly.
If you are going to have the tank drilled, why not skip the sump all togeather, install some bulkheads and just run the canister? Only reason I can think of is that you are wanting to use the sump for the equipment like the heater and so on.
If you are going to have the tank drilled, why not skip the sump all togeather, install some bulkheads and just run the canister? Only reason I can think of is that you are wanting to use the sump for the equipment like the heater and so on.
It's completely pointless, as the cannister is ideally designed to remove water from the tank, thus not needing an overflow. If you used a cannister, or looked at one working this would be obvious.
HOWEVER your problem comes as you are relying on one pump to get you into the sump, and one to get you out, and this is inevitably not going to work, unless you put the return pump on to a water level detector to turn off when it runs to low, and the cannister on another (in case it goes too high in the sump.)
All in all a bad plan. The easy alternative I have used is water to cannister, cannister to refugium/paludrium, gravity flow back to aquarium from paludrium as the refugium/paldrium is above the tank.
HOWEVER your problem comes as you are relying on one pump to get you into the sump, and one to get you out, and this is inevitably not going to work, unless you put the return pump on to a water level detector to turn off when it runs to low, and the cannister on another (in case it goes too high in the sump.)
All in all a bad plan. The easy alternative I have used is water to cannister, cannister to refugium/paludrium, gravity flow back to aquarium from paludrium as the refugium/paldrium is above the tank.
wayne is exactly right, unless both pumps move water at exactly the same rate, over time you will wind up with either all your water in the tank or in the sump (more likely all over the floor).
I see 2 options, if your sump is above the main tank use the canister to move the water to the sump and gravity to move the water back to the main tank(wayne's option), OR if your sump is below, use a prefilter in your overflow and the canister (with finer filter floss) to move the water back to the main tank (Orion's option).
There is no need for two pumps at all, so;
"Tank > Sump > Canister > Sump > Return to tank <-- This is what I'm trying to avoid"
should look like Tank > Sump > Canister > Return to tank.
I see 2 options, if your sump is above the main tank use the canister to move the water to the sump and gravity to move the water back to the main tank(wayne's option), OR if your sump is below, use a prefilter in your overflow and the canister (with finer filter floss) to move the water back to the main tank (Orion's option).
There is no need for two pumps at all, so;
"Tank > Sump > Canister > Sump > Return to tank <-- This is what I'm trying to avoid"
should look like Tank > Sump > Canister > Return to tank.
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Hang on a sec, I think we're all going in the right direction, but not on the same page. Also, my overflow is much more innovative than the traditional holes. If you don't understand the overflow slot, I'll try to explain a bit further.
The overflow has a slot drilled in to accomodate for the missing variables between each of the holes, so the water level remains constant instead of constantly fluctuating up and down (as with the holes). I'll attach my plans:
The teal lines and arrows represent water direction.
Maybe that will clear up some of the confusion.
There's only one water pump. The rest is reliant on gravity. (The canister can't suck in air because of the slot constantly changing rates at which the tank is drained and filled.) Does that make sense? I hope it does.
PS My real plans are more detailed than this, but for discussion sake, I took out all of the non-vitals.
The overflow has a slot drilled in to accomodate for the missing variables between each of the holes, so the water level remains constant instead of constantly fluctuating up and down (as with the holes). I'll attach my plans:
The teal lines and arrows represent water direction.
Maybe that will clear up some of the confusion.
There's only one water pump. The rest is reliant on gravity. (The canister can't suck in air because of the slot constantly changing rates at which the tank is drained and filled.) Does that make sense? I hope it does.
PS My real plans are more detailed than this, but for discussion sake, I took out all of the non-vitals.
I don't think that a gravity feed canister is going to be able to give you much flow. (This is what you are talking about, not having the canister turned on?) Canisters like this are designed to work the best with their internal pump. If you want a gravity feed canister, it may be better for you to make your own, but I still don't see you getting a lot of flow out of one.
BTW-I don't know if you know this or not, but you can get a Jebo pump pretty cheap off of ebay. I've bought two rated 700gph and one I've had about 6 months and the other 3 and haven't had a problem with either. For $20 it aint a bad deal.
BTW-I don't know if you know this or not, but you can get a Jebo pump pretty cheap off of ebay. I've bought two rated 700gph and one I've had about 6 months and the other 3 and haven't had a problem with either. For $20 it aint a bad deal.
A. I count 3 water pumps, not one. 1-the canister, 2-the powerhead and 3-the ViaAqua. If the powerhead is just for circulation in the sump then that one doesn't count but your drawing shows it connected to the output of the canister. And if the canister is unplugged then I see where you are counting only one pump, however...
B. Orion is right, you won't get the flow through the canister you want with it's internal pump turned off. If that happens you will pump all your sump water up to the main tank. That would also happen if the canister works fine at first then clogs up over time.
How about this, make a multi-tray filter with floss and bio-balls positioned over your sump, using the gravity feed off your overflow going to a spraybar over the tray.
Here's a pic of what I mean (sorry it's so blurry)
B. Orion is right, you won't get the flow through the canister you want with it's internal pump turned off. If that happens you will pump all your sump water up to the main tank. That would also happen if the canister works fine at first then clogs up over time.
How about this, make a multi-tray filter with floss and bio-balls positioned over your sump, using the gravity feed off your overflow going to a spraybar over the tray.
Here's a pic of what I mean (sorry it's so blurry)
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Right, the powerhead is just for circulation. I dont think I drew it correctly. I wanted the output of the canister just in the tank, and then the powerhead for circulation. My bad. Hmm, okay, I see what you guys mean now. Thanks!
CableGuy, would that tray filter be hard to build yourself or would one just buy that anywhere?
So, instead of using a gravity feed to the canister, it'd go to the tray filter, and then could I use the canister for fine water polishing?
CableGuy, would that tray filter be hard to build yourself or would one just buy that anywhere?
So, instead of using a gravity feed to the canister, it'd go to the tray filter, and then could I use the canister for fine water polishing?
Sure, you could either have both the intake and return in the sump, or have the return go back up to the tank for a sump return as well.
Next time your at wal-mart, lowes or the like check out the small storage containers. They make these three (or more or less) tray carts that I've seen people use before for a drip tray. I'll try to dig up a link for it to show you.
Next time your at wal-mart, lowes or the like check out the small storage containers. They make these three (or more or less) tray carts that I've seen people use before for a drip tray. I'll try to dig up a link for it to show you.