PH crash?

[Can0Beans]

All,

I have a 20 gallon tank that has been the happy home of an Oranda and a Calico goldfish. Well on Thursday I added some live plants, a potted anubias (spelling?) and a dwarf onion. On the recommendation of my LFS, I added a little bit of Flourish and some Seachem liqiud iron stuff.

Saturday afternoon, I can home to find my Calico dead and my Oranda suffering. It seemed too sudden to be an illness -- so my gut reaction was a massive water change (probably not the best idea) but I saved some of the water and started testing. My PH had dropped off the charts. It was reading at the lowest my kit will go (below 6.0). I'm assuming this is the cause of my loss. I know now that I should have brought the PH up slowly, but I think my Oranda probably wouldn't have made it.

Anyways -- today, I notice the Oranda (who is barely hanging in there) is back to resting on the bottom -- so I test my PH (less than 24 hours after I did a 75% water change) and my PH is back below at or below 6. When I tested my water straight from the tap -- it came in at about 7.2. Any idea what could be causing my PH to crash like this?

I regularly do water changes, and by regularly, I mean at least 30% once a week -- so I don't think it's "Old Tank Syndrome"

Thanks!

 

[Can0Beans]

I just tested my other tank (I haven't been in the habit of testing PH) and it appears to be testing at 6.0 or lower -- so maybe this wasn't actually the issue.

Any other ideas?

 

[homebunnyj]

Tell us a bit more about your tank, please.

What kind of filtration are you running-- hob, ugf? What is your maintenance like? Do you vacuum the substrate every week at wc time?

How about testing-- do you have recent results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate?

Could there be a bunch of organic gunk rotting in your substrate on an ongoing basis?

Do you have wood in the tank?

Could your pH test be inaccurate?

Is your substrate deep, could you have stirred up a pocket of gas produced by anaerobic bacteria-- did bubbles come up from below when you planted your recent purchases?

 

[Jake]

Do you know how to use your test kit? Simple question but I am sure has solved problems before.

 

[Seleya]

Fill a glass with tap water and allow it to sit out overnight -- test it after 12 then 24 hours. If your municipality changed sources or treatments, the water may have different parameters now. With two unrelated tanks having issues, I would first look towards the water source.

Sorry for your loss.

 

[Can0Beans]

So I think based upon further inspection -- visually of the fish and further testing, I'm going to rule out PH crash. I think I just have low PH. Does water hardness affect PH? Our local water is very "hard"....

However, based upon the Oranda's symptoms -- I think I might have Septicemia... I'm wondering if it came in on the plants. Does that sound like a possibility? It came from a very reputable LFS but I didn't quarantine the plants when I bought them.

The Calico died with no visible signs, but the Oranda has weird things going on with one of his eyes and red streaks in his fins. I am treating the tank with Maracyn-Two --- since the Oranda is the only thing in the tank, I have that luxury. He is eating, but remains sluggish. I'm not too hopeful that he'll pull through, but I'm trying my damnest.

I'm still open to any suggestions...

 

[MissFishy]

Either way, if your water is coming out of the tap above 7 then dropping to below 6, you need to look into it. As was said above, you really need to put a cup of water out and test it after 12 hrs, then again after 24 hrs, then again after 48 hrs. If your water's PH drops, that means you need to start aging your water before water changes. A swinging PH can really hurt your fish and stress them out. Not sure about the red streaks you're talking about, can you take a picture or describe further?

 

[Can0Beans]

Just some additional info:

Just ran the usual water tests + my new ph test

Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: between 5-10
PH: 5.0

I'm thinking the problem is disease -- and not water conditions. I've set aside some tap water to test after 12 hours and see where it is....

The red streaks almost look like veins in the fins, can't real explain it better than that.

Is it possible that I brought something home on the plants?

 

[Can0Beans]

Do you know how to use your test kit? Simple question but I am sure has solved problems before.

Ya, I'm pretty competent with the test kit -- I've been at this for a few years now -- so the test kit isn't something new.

 

[Can0Beans]

Also is it worthwhile trying to pull the PH up? With a PH increase product?

 

[Jake]

pH increasing products can stress out the fish. I would wait until the water results like above are explained. Once you get the results then decided what to do. If it is some diesease or something along those lines, a pH increaser is just going to put more strain, stress on the fish.
Good Luck!*thumbsups

 

[homebunnyj]

Just out of curiosity, what is you water hardness level?

I can't figure how hard water would be dropping ph like that. Is there a lot of organic matter in your tank??

 

[Jake]

Found this....
It might help
If the pH is dropping dramatically in your organic media system, then something unusual is going on. Generally, organic media systems tend to have more problems with high pH rather than low. Anaerobic conditions in the root zone, which can be caused by rotting vegetation and certain organic additives, are a common problem in organic hydroponics when microbial growth becomes out of control and this can be indicated by a drop in pH. Small additions of hydrated lime will bring the pH up, but be careful how much is added and apply this in small, frequent amounts and check the pH regularly. However, additions of lime may not solve the overall problem, and it may be a better idea to replace the media and start with a fresh batch of sterile substrate.

 

[TheFool]

It would be very odd indeed to have pH crashes if you really do have hard water, and would require a quite spectacular amount of rotting veg - basically it has to generate enough organic acids to react with all the buffer/kH first before it can drive down pH, so what you're describing is normally assoc. with soft water.

An 'out of tap' oH of 7.2 isn't what I'd assoc with hard water either -s ure you're not on a household water softener?

At this point in time I'd be tempted to pull all the plants form the tank, stop mucking around with the flourish and whatever and do daily large water changes.

 

[Seleya]

We need a great deal more info about this tank. The numbers are not making much sense. Could you give us a thorough history? (what, how big, how long, changes, maintenance, stocking, decor, additives.....)Any chance you could run a water sample down to the lfs for comparison? What are you keeping in the other tank? How are they doing?

 

[Can0Beans]

We need a great deal more info about this tank. The numbers are not making much sense. Could you give us a thorough history? (what, how big, how long, changes, maintenance, stocking, decor, additives.....)Any chance you could run a water sample down to the lfs for comparison? What are you keeping in the other tank? How are they doing?

Tank has been established for about 1.5 years. It is a 20 gallon high. For the life of the tank, it has only had 2 residents, 1 fancy calico (now deceased) and 1 oranda. Both were very tiny when I got then and they were both probably 3 inches long body wise -- not counting tail.

I do about a 25 to 30% water change religiously once a week. Occasionally, I will do a 50% water change, just to keep the water fresh. The only chemical I use regularly is Amquel. Although occasionally, I will use NovAqua, but not that often.

The tank has 2 pieces of driftwood -- some sort of sandstone looking rock and "natural" gravel -- all of this hasn't changed in the life of the tank. There are also a few plastic plants.

The other tank is home to two tiger barbs, two upside down cats and 1 cory. It is also a 20 gallon high. Everyone in this tank appears healthy.

The only thing I didn't include in the description of the goldfish tank was the stuff I mentioned in my initial post, the new plants and the fertilizer and iron.

Also the PH reading I took yesterday was with a brand new kit from the store. I set some water out from the tap over night to settle, I'm going test it when I get home from work.

 

[homebunnyj]

What is your gh and kh?

I assume you vacuum the gravel really well, and often?

How about pulling out the driftwood? Wood in a tank will definitely lower your ph.

 

[Can0Beans]

What is your gh and kh?

I assume you vacuum the gravel really well, and often?

How about pulling out the driftwood? Wood in a tank will definitely lower your ph.

Vacuum regularly, with each water change. I'll try pulling the drift wood and see if the ph comes up. Weird thing is -- driftwood is not new...

Unforutnately -- my test kit doesn't include a gh or kh test.

 

[Seleya]

Driftwood, especially wood that has been in use without incident until now, is unlikely to cause pH to go down that much. There were no symptoms whatsoever until the other day, correct? I will be interested to see what your readings are with the new kit. You may want to contact your municipal water company to see if any recent changes have been made (different chems added, alternate water source, etc)

It sounds like you have done everything the way it should be done, which is doubly frustrating. I did try Flourish once and had some funkyness in my fish which made nervous enough to not try it again. It was a while ago and I don't recall what the exact issue was. I know there are plenty of people who use all sorts of ferts without any problems whatsoever.

Did you get a new master kit so you can test everything fresh?

I'm so sorry about your goldie.

 

[Can0Beans]

Well -- more interesting developments.

As I stated earlier -- I've been adding Maracyn-Two because I'm still operating under the assumption that I'm dealing with Septicemia. My wife called to tell me that my tank is now very cloudy and grey -- which sounds to me like a bacteria bloom. Although I'd think the Maracyn would inhibit bacteria growth - -but I'm not doctor

Does this add any additional insight?

I wonder if I did stir something nasty up in the gravel...