I recently setup, my first, 40 gal tank 11 days ago. Letting the water cycle for 2 days before adding 2 silver dollars. Petsmart checked my water and said that it was ok for fish to be added. With there recommendation I proceeded to purchase the fish. Over the last week my concern for water conditions grew. I brought a test kit for Ph, Ammonia, and Nitrite. As of right now, my ammonia and nitrite are at 0 but the Ph seems to be way off. Both the fish are healthy, active, and eating. I have tested the water for the past 3 days at it seems to be stable at 8.0, which seems very high since my tap water is at 7.2. What would cause this large increase? Would performing a water change help to lower the Ph?
Ph Problem
- Thread starter fluke420
- Start date
R
What happens when water is left in a container is that gases trapped in the water begin to dissapate. The major gas is C02 because C02 will change pH. When C02 is introducted into water, it reacts will gH (General Hardness) to form carbonic acid hence pH will go down. As C02 escapes from the water, pH will go up. Performing a water change will help but only temporarily. After a few days it will go back up. There are a number of ways to compensate for the change depending on your experience and knowledge. Heres a list:
- Reverse Osmosis (pure water that you can buy)
- Peat moss
- carbon filters
- C02 injection (good if you have plants)
- Chemicals (ph down)
If you like to prepare the water before adding to you tank, you can easily go with the chemicals. DO NOT add chemicals to your tank. I would go with this if you do not have plants. R/O water works well also and isnt that expensive.
I wouldnt worry about the pH however. Be more concerned about big changes in pH. Due to popular belief, many people think that pH is a major factor in keeping fish. I some what disagree based on research and experience. Change is what stresses fish (not nesseccarily kills them) and stress can lead to disease.
Another concern however with your tank is that it did not cycle in 2 days unless you had some filter media/gravel from another tank. Im thinking that you might have ammonia and nitrite problems in a couple of weeks.
I hope it helps. Any questions, feel free to ask.
- Reverse Osmosis (pure water that you can buy)
- Peat moss
- carbon filters
- C02 injection (good if you have plants)
- Chemicals (ph down)
If you like to prepare the water before adding to you tank, you can easily go with the chemicals. DO NOT add chemicals to your tank. I would go with this if you do not have plants. R/O water works well also and isnt that expensive.
I wouldnt worry about the pH however. Be more concerned about big changes in pH. Due to popular belief, many people think that pH is a major factor in keeping fish. I some what disagree based on research and experience. Change is what stresses fish (not nesseccarily kills them) and stress can lead to disease.
Another concern however with your tank is that it did not cycle in 2 days unless you had some filter media/gravel from another tank. Im thinking that you might have ammonia and nitrite problems in a couple of weeks.
I hope it helps. Any questions, feel free to ask.
When water comes out of your tap, it has a fair amount of Carbonic Acid in it. When it sits out for a while, it out-gasses CO[sub]2[/sub], and the pH rises.
As long as it's stable, I wouldn't worry about it. Fish will adapt to different pH's just fine. It's variable pH's that troubles them. Avoid "yo-yoing" your pH and your fish will be fine.
Josh
As long as it's stable, I wouldn't worry about it. Fish will adapt to different pH's just fine. It's variable pH's that troubles them. Avoid "yo-yoing" your pH and your fish will be fine.
Josh
You have one of two things.
1. You have Co2(carbon dioxide) in your tap. When you test the tap water it will give you a lower reading then your aquarium. The co2 gases out through normal means(from the spicket,into the aquarium, outtake of filter, biowheel(?),airstone, even a few hours to overnight.)
Co2 lowers your PH . When it gasses out..it goes back up to what it would be without the Co2 in it.
2. You have something that is raising the Ph in the tank. Rock..coral substrate or something Ph altering.
I believe your case is #1. You can find out by putting tap water in a bucket, and aerate it with an airstone. If it is different the next day..you have Co2. If it is still 7.2..then see what might be in your tank.
--Now on your cycle.--
First did you seed your tank?
-gravel from an established tank
-filter media from an established filter
-rocks and decor from an established tank
I find it very hard to believe you are cycled already.
By letting the water cycle 2 days with out fish(or a source of ammonia) ..all you did was gas out the chlorine(and possable co2)The cycle didn't start til the silver dollrs entered the water and you feed them or they went to the bathroom.
A cycled tank will read ammonia=0 nitrItes=0 but you will have some reading on nitrAtes.
If all 3 are 0-0-0..then you have to start monitoring ammonia....and make sure it stays below the lethal levels.
Let us know what is going on.
I wouldn't worry too much with the PH, a partial water change(when you need it) wont be bad at all at a slightly different PH. Higher Ph is easier for a fish to take in change than the acidic side(below 7) plus it will be diluted.
HTH
1. You have Co2(carbon dioxide) in your tap. When you test the tap water it will give you a lower reading then your aquarium. The co2 gases out through normal means(from the spicket,into the aquarium, outtake of filter, biowheel(?),airstone, even a few hours to overnight.)
Co2 lowers your PH . When it gasses out..it goes back up to what it would be without the Co2 in it.
2. You have something that is raising the Ph in the tank. Rock..coral substrate or something Ph altering.
I believe your case is #1. You can find out by putting tap water in a bucket, and aerate it with an airstone. If it is different the next day..you have Co2. If it is still 7.2..then see what might be in your tank.
--Now on your cycle.--
First did you seed your tank?
-gravel from an established tank
-filter media from an established filter
-rocks and decor from an established tank
I find it very hard to believe you are cycled already.
By letting the water cycle 2 days with out fish(or a source of ammonia) ..all you did was gas out the chlorine(and possable co2)The cycle didn't start til the silver dollrs entered the water and you feed them or they went to the bathroom.
A cycled tank will read ammonia=0 nitrItes=0 but you will have some reading on nitrAtes.
If all 3 are 0-0-0..then you have to start monitoring ammonia....and make sure it stays below the lethal levels.
Let us know what is going on.
I wouldn't worry too much with the PH, a partial water change(when you need it) wont be bad at all at a slightly different PH. Higher Ph is easier for a fish to take in change than the acidic side(below 7) plus it will be diluted.
HTH
Thank you so much for your help. I had a couple more questions I thought you would be able to help me with.
Will the pH effect how ammonia and nitrite is broken down? Where can I purchase Reverse Osmosis water? Is it basically distilled water you can buy at a grocery store? I have seen beneficial bacteria in a bottle at my LFS. Would adding this help jump-start the ammonia and nitrite breakdown? These questions arise because I see so many additives to create the perfect(?) community tank. Are these products necessary? My thought would be to keep it as natural as possible.
Will the pH effect how ammonia and nitrite is broken down? Where can I purchase Reverse Osmosis water? Is it basically distilled water you can buy at a grocery store? I have seen beneficial bacteria in a bottle at my LFS. Would adding this help jump-start the ammonia and nitrite breakdown? These questions arise because I see so many additives to create the perfect(?) community tank. Are these products necessary? My thought would be to keep it as natural as possible.
R
You are correct that an aquarium should be as natural as possible and that can be achieved without chemicals. I prefer not to add chemicals to any of my tanks. Im not saying that it works or does not work. I dont know, like most of us here, I think its just a money making thing.
I have heard that ammonia/nitrite does alter pH but Im not sure to what extent. I would not really worry about it once your tank is cycled.
R/O water can be bought at most grocery stores. It is not the same as distilled water. Distilled water uses heat to steam the water and collects the steam. Ive heard that it is not the same as R/O water although I have not reseached enough to know myself.
The 'bacteria in a bottle' is not worth it simply because I have not seen it work. I have tried it. The fishless cycling is the way to go.
Keep the questions coming. We'll be glad to answer them.
I have heard that ammonia/nitrite does alter pH but Im not sure to what extent. I would not really worry about it once your tank is cycled.
R/O water can be bought at most grocery stores. It is not the same as distilled water. Distilled water uses heat to steam the water and collects the steam. Ive heard that it is not the same as R/O water although I have not reseached enough to know myself.
The 'bacteria in a bottle' is not worth it simply because I have not seen it work. I have tried it. The fishless cycling is the way to go.
Keep the questions coming. We'll be glad to answer them.
RO water is created by passing water through a semi-permiable membrane -against- its osmotic (concentration) gradient, effectively "squeesing out" the water from all the mineral and organic stuff dissoloved in it. RO water is essencially perfect water. Nothing is in it, absolutely no CO2, no DO (dissoloved oxygen), no hardness, no toxic stuff, no nothing! It don't even taste good, but that's just my personal feeling on it. ;D. RO water is -VERY BAD- for freshwater fishies.
What? How can perfect water be bad for fishies? Notice I said -freshwater- fishes. There are trace elements and minerals that are essential to a fish's health that they can only get through their water. Reverse osmosis takes that out of the water. People use RO water on their -saltwater- aquariums because they are effectively returning all those minerals and trace elements back into the water with their seasalt mix and other reef chemicals. The reefkeepers I know are soooo anal about water purity they'd rather make their own water than even trust dechlorinated tap
The lab I worked at had a huge 200 gallon RO unit that we used to run controls on all our tests. If we needed to run a freshwater test, we had to make synthetic freshwater by adding NaCO3, MgSO4, NaCl, KCl, and some other chemicals in pretty exacting ratios that I don't remember. But fish did die in strait RO water, that much I do know. I don't know how much of basic aquarium salts you would need to add to make RO water safe for freshwater fishes.
Bottled spring water has pluses and disadvantges as well. A plus is that you're getting pretty "clean" water with no chlorines, but you're getting different chemistries between brands as well as possibly between bottles of the same brand. Distilling water also removes salt and minerals because these don't evaporate during a steaming process.
RO units are expensive, and if you're only doing a freshwater tank, probably not worth the investment. A better idea would be to just age your water with arration and dechlorinator overnight before you used it.
~~Colesea
What? How can perfect water be bad for fishies? Notice I said -freshwater- fishes. There are trace elements and minerals that are essential to a fish's health that they can only get through their water. Reverse osmosis takes that out of the water. People use RO water on their -saltwater- aquariums because they are effectively returning all those minerals and trace elements back into the water with their seasalt mix and other reef chemicals. The reefkeepers I know are soooo anal about water purity they'd rather make their own water than even trust dechlorinated tap
The lab I worked at had a huge 200 gallon RO unit that we used to run controls on all our tests. If we needed to run a freshwater test, we had to make synthetic freshwater by adding NaCO3, MgSO4, NaCl, KCl, and some other chemicals in pretty exacting ratios that I don't remember. But fish did die in strait RO water, that much I do know. I don't know how much of basic aquarium salts you would need to add to make RO water safe for freshwater fishes.
Bottled spring water has pluses and disadvantges as well. A plus is that you're getting pretty "clean" water with no chlorines, but you're getting different chemistries between brands as well as possibly between bottles of the same brand. Distilling water also removes salt and minerals because these don't evaporate during a steaming process.
RO units are expensive, and if you're only doing a freshwater tank, probably not worth the investment. A better idea would be to just age your water with arration and dechlorinator overnight before you used it.
~~Colesea
R
I agree with Colesea and I guess I didnt fully explain myself! Thanks for clarifing. I agree that R/O is pure and that in itself is not good for fish. However, most of the time one would mix tap water and R/O to balance out the mineral deficiency. I actually would prefer mixing tap water then adding some form of chemical. Im currently breeding Discus and that is the approach Im taking. Most of the minerals should be provide thru their diet however instead of relying on adding chemicals in the water. With a excellant diet, I think that fish should be able to live in R/O providing it is oxygaded(sp?). I could be wrong however.
R/O units are expensive therefore not worth the cost unless for human consumption reasons.
R/O units are expensive therefore not worth the cost unless for human consumption reasons.
Hmm...I wonder about supplying minerals with the diet, if that would be possible. It would have to be a really high quality diet. Not many of the processed stuff has that, which is why variety of diet is key, with fresher better. The fry we used in the lab were fed 24hr old Artemia and still died in RO water. But then again, we weren't really giving them a variety of stuff. I wonder if there is something like a fishy salt lick out there .
If you are interested in the chemical ratios needed for synthetic freshwater, you can go to the library and check out any Chemical Proceedure and Standards textbook. That's where our formula came from. There is a book of Standards published out there, but beyond the library and perhaps Fisher Scientific, I don't know where you'd find it.
~~Colesea
.If you are interested in the chemical ratios needed for synthetic freshwater, you can go to the library and check out any Chemical Proceedure and Standards textbook. That's where our formula came from. There is a book of Standards published out there, but beyond the library and perhaps Fisher Scientific, I don't know where you'd find it.
~~Colesea
Fluke-The general jist of this is that you don't have to worry about you pH.
You do have to worry about your cycle though, make sure your ammonia and nitrites don't creep too high. Your pH will have a slight effect on that. The higher the pH, the higher the ammonia:ammonium ratio there is. IOW, two identical tanks will have different amounts of ammonia, depending on their pH, the tank with the higher pH having the higher ammonia level.
Keep a close eye on it and it won't be an issue.
Josh
You do have to worry about your cycle though, make sure your ammonia and nitrites don't creep too high. Your pH will have a slight effect on that. The higher the pH, the higher the ammonia:ammonium ratio there is. IOW, two identical tanks will have different amounts of ammonia, depending on their pH, the tank with the higher pH having the higher ammonia level.
Keep a close eye on it and it won't be an issue.
Josh
Terrific. I can now (somewhat) leave me pH worries behind. But one more question before I drop this subject. How do I properly add new fish with a pH this high? I understand how to properly add fish, adjust the water temperature and add tank water to the bag to increase the pH. Would this still shock the fish and/or cause pH burns?
R
When I get new fish, I use a container and slowly add tank water to the container. It takes me everywhere from an hour to two hours. It might to overdone but Id rather have it take a long time than stress my fish. I add tank water every 15 minutes, usually around 1/4 of the amount in the container. I have never had any problems. *thumbsupsmiley*