pondering reverse UGF in setting up first tank

[Qrystal]

Greetings, nice place you've got here. I was wondering if I could get some help with finalizing decisions for my setup. I've got a 29 gallon freshwater tank, plastic plants, and I dream of neon tetras. I intend to cycle the tank fishlessly first. But before I begin, I want to get all the gear decisions made, with the help of any advice you can give.

First off, I'm wanting to try a Reverse UGF. I realize that most people hate UGFs in general, and I've read a lot of the propaganda, and I'm not going to get talked out of using it. I think most, if not all, of the disadvantages are overcome by running the system in reverse, which is why I'm going for this approach. I also can't help but think that the biological filtration of the UGF would be improved by pushing filtered, oxygen-rich water UP through the bacteria on the gravel. I will gravel vac religiously. I also don't intend to have live plants. I think I am an ideal candidate to experiment with this setup, and I am already immensely enjoying the challenge of researching what needs to be done. I'm just .. kinda stuck, right now.

So I know I need some form of mechanical/chemical filtration. I've been researching Power Filters, and it looks to me that most just pour water into the tank in a way that would be difficult to redirect into a powerhead -- just placing the elements close to each other leaves room for stray particles to enter the powerhead. Anyone have any idea how to make this work?

Another filter I've been eyeing is the HOT Magnum canister, for its price, claim to quietness, "convenience of a power filter", and size (250 gph seems to be a reasonable amount of overkill for a 29 gallon tank). The pictures in the manual make it look like the output could possibly even attach directly to a, heh, "downlift" tube. I am wondering, is it possible that this would have enough "push" that a powerhead might not be necessary? If so, that would be pretty darn incredible... and soo nice and quiet, I'd imagine .... *twirlysmi

One more question: I can't quite figure out where the oxygenation is taking place in this system. If I go with a Power Filter, I suppose the falling of water would provide some oxygen, but is it enough, since it's not actually disturbing the water's surface? If I go with the HOT Magnum, I'm not sure where there'd be any aeration at all, and I suspect I would really need some bubbles -- which is fine, I am kinda eyeing a bubble wall anyways. What say you?

Anyone familiar with RUGF setups or HOT Magnums, or just all-around-knowledgeable enough to share some ideas, please let me know what you think.

~Qrystal~

 

[FroggyFox]

I'm not entirely sure I can offer any help on the RUGF...but there is a lot to be said for UGF's. They're not a BAD system at all...and maybe you should also consider just using a normal UGF run through a powerhead instead of the traditional air pump with tubing and an airstone? You can power the RUGF by attaching a powerhead that has a reverse flow...like the aquaclear one I just got for my SW tank (look on www.drsfostersmith.com or www.bigalsonline.com).

As for needing bubbles...not really, kinda. Surface agitation is a good idea generally speaking...but that doesn't have to be in the form of bubbles. If you pointed the output of a normal powerhead towards the surface for some agitation, or the powerfilter pouring water into the tank, or attached that little venturi deal (that draws air into the flow of the water through a little pipe) to a powerhead, that'd work just fine.

 

[cybersymes]

hey there...welcome to the tank...
i'm a noob and no good to you regarding your [amazing] rugf deal...

but can i vote for a bottom feeder for you...cories...

i have 6 leopard cories [corydoras trilineatus] ...
fantastic fish...really good funn...
and they are very happy with my black neons...
and my cardinal tetras...one bigg happy familly ...

 

[Orion]

If you want filtered water to go directly underneith the UGF plate then the best way is to use the HOT magnum or a canister filter. Either of these should be able to attatch direcly to the lift tubes on the UGF. Of course you may need to figure out exacly how to attatch them, but I'm sure it can be done.

It's an interesting idea, but there may be easier ways of going about it to get the same end result. Any filter is eventualy going to become a bio-filter as the bacteria grows everywhere in a tank, it is just more concentrated where higher flows of water are. So you could most likley acheive the same thing by getting useing a powerfilter with either a bio-wheel or a sponge or a canister filter with the ceramic rings. Not saying that you shouldn't try it Just that there are easier ways of doing it.

 

[longtyme68]

I have successfully installed an UnderGround Jet system in my 55 gallon, which has a similar concept of keeping excess food and fish poop off the subtrate. I am using sand and I see that you will be using gravel. The RUGF sounds like it would work. I am using a powerhead with a reverse cycle to run my UGJ. I run it during the day and cut it off at night...my small fish need a break from all the currents that it produces.

 

[Seleya]

I don't see why you couldn't attach at least one output of the HOT Magnum to a downlift. If you're worried about additional biofiltration and surface agitation, why not put one output on the downlift (it would take some jerryrigging) and another on the biowheel accessory you can get for it? I'm of two minds on the HOT filters -- got one, really like it, probably wouldn't buy another.

I think the easiest way to run an UGF is with reversed powerheads with a sponge filter attachment. That is one way people have avoided some of the problems associated with UGFs in the past. UGFs have fallen out of favor for a variety of reasons, I'm not so sure it's so much propaganda as simply there are better, easier ways now and times have changed.

 

[Qrystal]

Hey, thanks all, I'm feeling closer to a decision already (and want to go shopping this weekend! )

Seleya: Thank you, for some reason I forgot to consider using a sponge filter, and the idea is tempting. I'd still probably get a HOB too... hmm. I think I'll make two shopping lists and compare the prices, and that might help me make my decision. I'd have to also see if the sponge deal would be visibly awkward... I guess I could always hide it behind some plants...

longtyme68: Yup, keeping the poop&food out of the gravel is one of the other big reasons I'm considering the RUGF. Glad to hear it's working for you, although the comment about the strong currents concerns me since I'll be having small fish too. But from the discussion of your UGJ in your signature, I'm suspecting I wouldn't have that problem if I choose a powerhead that is not overpowered for my tank. I will not be relying on the RUGF alone, after all. And I may end up not going the powerhead route anyways...

Orion: Thanks for confirming my suspicions that the HOT Magnum would probably work. I agree that there's probably an easier way to get all the necessary types of filtration (and I didn't realize that it was the flow of water that determines where the bacteria are happiest), but there's just something too tempting about pushing debris upwards out of the gravel.

cybersymes: I appreciate the recommendation, and I will definitely consider cories when I'm shopping. Leopard eh? Sounds interesting

FroggyFox: One of the reasons I am not considering a regular UGF is just that I want to feel good about the way I first set it up so I don't have to change it anytime soon. And I err, well, I mistakenly started researching AFTER I had already put in the UGF, all the decorations, and the water ... for a scary few days, I was convinced I wanted to tear it all out and start over without the UGF, but then I heard about the Reverse idea and decided to give it a shot. There, that's the whole story, you got it out of me

Next move: *GOLDFISH* make the shopping lists and see which is more affordable, and keep checking back here in case anyone has more to add! Thanks very much, everyone.

 

[Qrystal]

Oops forgot to reply to one more thing:

As for needing bubbles...not really, kinda. Surface agitation is a good idea generally speaking...but that doesn't have to be in the form of bubbles. If you pointed the output of a normal powerhead towards the surface for some agitation, or the powerfilter pouring water into the tank, or attached that little venturi deal (that draws air into the flow of the water through a little pipe) to a powerhead, that'd work just fine.

Never heard of little venturi, that could be exactly what I'm looking for. After all, I want my gravel-bacteria to have good oxygen, and I didn't think that surface agitation would be much help in that (except in increasing the overall oxygen levels of the water). It might be tricky though to draw air into the flow and force it downwards... and even if it does work, I'm imagining bubbles might come up from just around the base of the "downlift" tube. That might not be altogether too bad though... It's worth thinking about. Thanks!

 

[Seleya]

LOL, with all the effort you're going to to avoid pulling the UGF, you could have already had it pulled. Keep in mind, it's easier to change things before everything is in and established than after -- there are plenty of threads, including my own, of tank teardown/restructuring on this forum.

The RUGF will keep the mulm out from underneath for a while but entropy happens. The venturi feature pulls air into the powerhead's stream, so it will force bubbles downward. Decent sized powerheads shouldn't cause major currents because they are being dispersed through the entire bottom of the tank.

 

[Qrystal]

change of plans...

So yesterday, I went shopping around to the LFSs and asked some questions. Mostly, I was trying to find an HOT Magnum, but instead I got some opinions. Apparantly the impeller in those has been causing a lot of people troubles, and one store said they won't stock them anymore because of that. They also had a lot of "leakers" in their last batch of them. I was a bit disappointed.

My "other half", sweet as he is, has been pushing us towards choosing what's "best", whatever that may mean. I told him that I heard that canisters are often considered "better", although the maintenance is a little more complicated. He didn't mind that, and I suppose I don't mind either...

...but when I asked about canisters to that guy who was anti-HOT, he informed me that canisters tend to have all the filtration in them, even the biological, and my RUGF would be pointless. *sigh* What to do, what to do....

.....I got rid of the UGF. Yup, I know, after all this talk, all this research, and all this agonizing, I got rid of it anyways. Well, actually, that's only half true... my honey took it all out, and I put it all back together. It was actually kinda fun that way, and I found it was much easier to nestle the plants under the gravel with a flat bottom instead of the darn /\/\/\/\ zigzags.

So we found a decently-priced canister at Petsmart, the Fluval 304 with 260 gph. (The 204 with its paltry 180 gph seemed like it would be "sufficient", but the more filtration the better, right?) I've done some research on it, and it seems like it will be a good choice. I'm a little leery about the comments I read about the pipes getting clogged (should I consider a sponge prefilter?) and I have to wonder if there will be enough biological filtration (I'm sure we can rig up a Bio-wheel in the output stream though)... but the price is right, the fact that it can hide in our awesome little aquarium stand is excellent, and the fact that it is said to be extremely quiet is probably the biggest selling point, along with the fact that we would need no other gear other than that.

We're most likely going to go out and get it today... but there should be time to see if any of you have any warnings against the thing. Speak now or forever hold your peace! I mean, I'd be eternally grateful if anyone could comment on the idea, either positively or negatively. I'm not sure the prices or availability of other canisters at other LFSs, but I'll probably hit a few different stores on the way to Petsmart just in case there's another good option available for under $150....

 

[Seleya]

You can definitely get the biowheel/spraybar assembly if you're worried about more biological filtration but the canister itself should do the job. Bigger is better with filtration (so long as it's not a whirling vortex! ) and I would definitely go with the larger filter. 260 gph isn't even 10X.

If you know what you want and are planning on going to PetSmart anyways, go to their website and print off the internet pricing page. The store will pricematch to it. It's $90 on their website. I haven't used Fluvals so can't comment on their durability and convenience. I like the Magnums and the Eheims seem to get consistently good reviews.

 

[FroggyFox]

I have a fluval 304 on my 46...its been a great filter, seriously you shouldn't be worried about pipes getting clogged or anything. The only issue I had with it was setting it up was a bit of a challenge since I'm not very mechanically inclined, but I got it! There's plenty of every type of filtration you need. Only thing is that you should make sure and put the output of the filter up pretty high so that you get some surface agitation even when the tank is full. With my evaporation rate I have it so that it is completely underwater (and nice and quiet) for a few days and then the water is down low enough that it starts breaking the surface of the water.

The 304 is 72.99 on www.bigalsonline.com, standard shipping 9.45 would still make the filter cheaper than even petsmart.com

www.Drsfostersmith.com the 304 is on sale for 78.99, shipping would be about 9.99...so again still cheaper than petsmart.com

Ehiem is the better canister filter by far...but usually people dont want to spend the money on it since they're so much more expensive. If you were going to spend over a hundred at petsmart on a fluval though...you might think about looking at the discounted price of an eheim on either of those sites??

 

[Qrystal]

I've never really gotten into ordering things online. Things worked out well today though; on the way to spending $119 at Petsmart for that Fluval, we decided to check out two other stores that we hadn't checked yet, this time with the sole goal of finding a deal on a good canister, and trying not to get caught up in the game that goes like "what if we get something that costs just $20 more...?" ...well okay, we knew we were already playing that game, because we originally thought we'd be spending $60 .. then $75 .... then $95 ....

The first place we went was called Discount Pet Food, and whose ad said "large assortment of aquariums and supplies". They only carried Rena, and the storekeeper had previous bad experiences with "that Hagen canister" in the past. I was a little disappointed, since I had already noted the $199 price tag on the appropriately-sized Rena. The guy looked at the box, and wondered why it had two price tags on it ... so he ripped off the $199 one ....

$139 later, and I'm the proud new owner of a Rena XP1 Filstar. So yeah, it was "just $20 more", but it was also "$60 savings" if you're into that stuff. I had read lots of good things about the Rena, and when I got home and had my hands-on-guy working on putting it together, I looked up more things and found nothing but good news. As some others have found, it's got a bit of a hum to it, but there's a few things we can check still. It's half the loudness of the air pump we no longer need, which is great. We've got the water output fierce enough to stir up lots of bubbles (good advice FroggyFox!), and we have the option to turn it down a lot when we eventually have to feed some fish

Happy happy happy..... and I guess this thread is now ready to be abandoned! Cheers all, thanks, and happy fish-rearing!

EDIT: I just wanted to mention that I'm talking Canadian prices here. Just so ya know