Quick Question: How long to remove Ich?

Leopardess

Superstar Fish
#1
Quick Question: How long to remove Ich in empty tank?

I've read somewhere that ich dies within two days if it does not find a host. Is this true? How long should I keep my tank empty before using it again ( or should I just take it apart and bleach everything?) Thanky, thanky.


edit: what I mean is, if I had ichy fish in a tank, and then remove them all, and the tank stays empty, how long should it stay empty before putting new fish in.
 

Last edited:

depthC

Superstar Fish
Feb 24, 2003
1,417
0
0
WI
#2
Taking it all apart and bleaching wouldnt be the thing to do. I dont think youve stated your question thouroughly, did you just have a case of ich and get over it? If so and its gone, wait a day or two after then do a water change to remove the chemicals. Most likely they wont get it again and Ive never heard of a case when they have.

- depthC
 

Leopardess

Superstar Fish
#3
um okay. I had a case of ich in my 10 gallon, which appears to be gone, but im sure its still in there. I took two fish out because they weren't looking very good for various reasons. I put them in another tank and would like to move them again. When they are gone i want to put new fish in that tank. I have read that ich will die in two days if it can't find a host - but I'm not sure I trust that. And I don't mind bleaching the tank out - its what you're supposed to do with many other situations, why are you saying not to? There would be nothing in it. Its only a five gallon.

okay, so basically, two days will be long enough? i think that is what you're saying.
 

Jawz

Large Fish
Mar 9, 2003
684
0
0
37
ontario, canada
Visit site
#4
ICh has a 7 day lifecycle, so 7 days of treatment can wipe almost all of it out, i say almost cuz i am not sure if ull kill ever single little one. I had it reccently and did like a 6 or 7 day treatment i believe, everything appears well
 

Fishman24

Small Fish
May 12, 2003
43
0
0
48
Visit site
#5
Ick can take up to 21 days depending on the temperature. It takes about 21 days at 74% around and it can take as little as 48 hours at a temperature around 85% or higher to complete all three cycles. Ich for the most part is always present and usually only occures when the fish are stressed and lose there protective coating. Ich breakouts can occur in even well estblished tanks that have not added fish in a long time. It all depends on whether the fish are stressed.
 

Leopardess

Superstar Fish
#6
Thanks for the help guys, but thats not what im asking! :) I am asking how long it will take to die off in a completley EMPTY tank...as in, when I take the fish out, how long will it live in the tank WITHOUT A HOST? As in, do I need to bleach the tank out to eradicate what would be left in there, or can I just leave the tank empty for a few days and it will die because it has nothing to attach on to?????

Get what I'm asking? ;)
 

depthC

Superstar Fish
Feb 24, 2003
1,417
0
0
WI
#9
No dont bleach it all, treat it for a week in 80dF or higher. It will always be in your water(i believe), how do you think fish would get it otherwise? Ive had fish in an established aquarium for a while with no newly added fish and when I started to slack off and the water conditions degraded i got ich. So the only true way to rid yourself of ich i believe would to buy a uv sterilizer, but even that would be pointless in just a 5g tank. Once the ich is gone keep up on your water changes and make sure any new fish dont have it, if they do put them in a quarantine tank untill they are cured.

- depthC
 

Last edited:

colesea

Superstar Fish
Oct 22, 2002
1,612
0
0
NY USA
#10
Just bleach everything and start over with recycling the tank. Make sure to bleach your gravel, ornaments, as well as any filter equipment. Bleaching it is the only way to ensure that the entire parasite is gone completely and that the only way you are introducing it into your tank is by introducing infected fish. All fish carry ich, just like all humans carry strep. When a fish's immune system is weakened because of stress (rapid temp flucuations, water quality degregation, new fish introduction, etc) the ich becomes an outbreak. Just like stress in humans can lead to strep throat.

Ich has three stages in its life cycle. Stage one is a polyp that lives on the gravel, glass, ornaments, and everything else in your tank. This stage is impervious to medications, which is why ich infections become reoccuring in many tanks that are not completely bleached out. This form of the parasite can sometimes stay in hibernation regardless of tank environmental conditions, hatching out when conditions become right again.

Stage two is a free-swimming stages that hatches out of the polyp and swims around looking for a host, aka, the fish. This is the only stage of the life cycle that is affected by medications, which is why most medications require at least a two week treatment period. Frequent water changes during ich treatment also help to remove the free-swimming stage from the water and prevent attachment to fish host.

The third stage is the actually cyst on the fish, which we see as the little white spots. This stage is also impervious to medications, although it can sometimes be combated by changes in osmotic pressure, aka the addition of salt to the environment which will suck water out of the cyst (as well as out of your fish) and cause the cyst to implode, rendering it dead. Once the cysts develop, they fall off the fish and into the sesile stage on your gravel, glass, ornaments, etc. to restart the cycle.

It is true that in an unpopulated fishtank, you can get rid of ich simply because there is no host. I recommend keeping the tank unpopulated for at least two weeks to be sure the parasite has starved itself out. Elevated temperatures are known to speed up the parasite life cycle, thus making them hatch out into the free-swimming stage faster, thus starving the parasite faster, but as I said before, many parasites can go into a hibernation and wait out bad environmental conditions, so you will never be 100% positive the ich is gone from your tank. The parasite is not all sycronized at the same time, so you can have many different individuals in different stages of development at the same time. One week of medications may have gotten rid of one stage, but the two other stages still hatch and continue the life cycle, thus perpetuating re-infections even if the fish were spot-free a week before.

Like I said before, just bleach it. So long as you aren't hurting any fish in the bleaching process and you don't mind the patience of having to recycle the tank, there is no harm in bleaching anything. If you are afraid of bleach residue, soak everything in a bucket of water with dechlorinator (tap water conditioner) in it, that should remove any bleach residue. I don't recommend bleaching driftwood, and if you do, soak it at least a week in un-bleach water to make sure everything is completely washed off.
~~Colesea
 

#11
alright...i know it is always in the water. But it isn't usually in such grand amounts and I want to make sure that it has mostly died off before I get new fish (the reason i had ich in the first place was because of new fish) to put in it - it is my quarantine tank. I might redo it anyway so bleaching it sounds pretty good to me, how come you are against it
 

#12
well thank you colesea....that was very...in depth. ;) I appreciate your help, and I'm sure others may learn from reading that...but I do know about the cycle and how to get rid of bleach once something is soaked in it (;) I'm not THAT new to this, you know) But if I hadn't known, that would have been an absolutely excellent explanation!:D You always cover the answer thoroughly and the question-askers are very appreciative of that, I'm sure.

I just was wondering what the most efficient time duration would be for trying to "starve" the parasite and you say two weeks, which is longer than I was thinking. But I think I may just bleach it. Once again, thanks for all your help.
 

colesea

Superstar Fish
Oct 22, 2002
1,612
0
0
NY USA
#13
Didn't mean to insult your intelligence *wink*, I just wanted to be sure to cover all the bases.

Fishman24 answered your question as to duration of time and parasite starvation. As he stated, it all really depends upon the tank temperature. To repeat what he said, it will take 21 days to starve out ich at 74oF, and perhaps 48hrs to starve out ich at 85oF. I recommend two weeks because ich has an incubation period of approximately 14 days. That means it takes 14 days of having ich in your tank before you see the little white spots on your fish. That's why when you buy new fish, they don't usually start to show the disease until after the "14 day garentee" has expired. By that time you tank is completely infected with all three stages, and can take as much as four weeks to properly treat with most medications when you have fish in the tank.

I believe the reason depthC might be recommending not to bleach the tank is because you will also be destroying all your beneficial bacteria in the process. You can definately save on water by trying the starving-out method, but you must also remember that whatever you do to the bad parasites you also do to your good bacteria. Elevating the temperatures will also starve out your biofilter, seeing as how they will process ammonia into nitrates much faster and without any fish, you will also have no source of ammonia to feed them with. Even with starving out the disease parasite, you may actually have a mini-recycling even after introducting the fish back into their tank. So trying to conserve the old water is a moot point. Also, the bad parasite is also being harbored in your bioflitration media, which will re-introduce it into the tank anyway, so you might as well get new biomedia.

Since you mentioned you don't mind doing a recycle, bleaching is the only 100% way you will be certain the current infestation is gone. Introducing new fish will be introducing ich, but if the stress levels are kept to a minimum, they shouldn't outbreak. If they do outbreak, I personally like to treat with salt and water changes, but Rid-Ich is also a very good medication I have used frequently. Ich requires 4 weeks of treatment, and then 2 extra weeks of observation just to be sure, before the fish get introduced to their main tank.
~~Colesea
 

Avalon

Superstar Fish
Oct 22, 2002
2,846
10
0
Ft. Worth, TX
www.davidressel.com
#14
Colesea outdid herself with the "ich" post! You go girl! :D

I would like to mention preventative care. While you may be able to rid your tank of ich, it can easily repopulate with the addition of one new fish.

As previously mentioned, most all fish carry ich. Cysts are the final and the beginning stage of the ich lifecycle. You can't tear down your tank everytime you get ich, especially if you've invested your creativity, effort, and time into your tank. I am strongly against bleaching a tank to eliminate ich unless a major remodel is in order. So, prevention is necessary.

It is absolutely important to reduce stress; better yet, it should be eliminated. Keeping the fishs' enviornment stable is one of the best ways to do it. While humans like change, fish do not. They expect that one plant or rock to remain where it is at all times. Their lives operate around stability and the knowledge that a certain object will always remain in one place. While slight modifications can be made such as light pruning or rearranging, for the most part, fish operate at the speed of nature. This can sometimes be very, very slow as any planted tank enthusiast can attest to. You now know what the lateral line on a fish is used for :) By remodeling, you are essentially distorting your fish's senses and exaggerating their perception of what is known and what is not.

Also, it is very important to keep an excellent diet for your fish. High quality flakes can provide vitamins and nutrients, while live or frozen foods can provide the protein and substanance fish need to funtion at their optimum levels and to grow. I feed my fish both frozen foods (beef heart, glassworms, bloodworms, etc.) and flakes (TetraMin Pro) daily. They look great, grow at a steady pace, are highly active, and have never been sick. Flakes alone are not conducive to proper growth; it's more like slim fast. It is the immune system that protects fish from ich, so stimulate it the best you can.

If you treat your fish like diamonds, they will shine and reflect ten-fold the care given to them!
 

#15
thanks for your post avalon, you are generally one of the more helpful ones to everyone too :) congrats! I'm only re arranging that tank because it does not have any permanent residents, so it wont mess with anyone to change it. It is my quarantine tank. And the fish had ich before I put them in the tank - i moved them from the ich tank (i got scissortails who had it) to the q-tank becayse they were getting stressed by the gouramis since only two scissortails were left. I feed my fish a good diet, its just that I bought the scissortails with it, or so it turns out :( I'm not going to buy the fish from that store anymore, because two out of two batches of fish from that store have been sick - the scissortails with ich and the harlequins with cotton mouth (yeah me, huh?)

But, I am glad to say, the ich is gone from the tnak it was originially in - thanks to coppersafe. (please no one write me saying that it is probably still there ,that it just fell off and is in the multiplying stage - i know ALL about the cycle). So my gouramis are happy once again and are eating like pigs!!! They are back to eating flakes and bloodworms off my fingers and if i hold a piece up above the water, they shoot water out of their mouths at it... It is soo cute, these are by far my fav. fish - other than my sexy betta boy of course.
 

colesea

Superstar Fish
Oct 22, 2002
1,612
0
0
NY USA
#16
Coppersafe, ah, be wary of having inverts or live plants. Sometimes the residual copper from that medicine (which is a good one when used correctly) may linger in your tank, causing a low level toxicity that isn't damaging to the fish, but might be so to shrimp or other inverts.

Avalon, you mentioned reducing stress on fish by keeping the environment stable. While I definately agree about the water chemistry/quality aspect of such a statement, I was wondering how you felt about environmental enrichment. Do fish get bored? If a plant, or rock, or whatever, has been in the same place for say, three years, while of course it is like us navigating our bedrooms in the dark, but haven't you ever gotten the urge to spontanously re-arrange the furniture because you were bored and needed to spice up life? I find that if I re-arrange a rock or plant or even just completely re-architech my tank at least once a month, the fish seem a bit more stimulated towards exploration. Of course, you could say they are stressed out, but I've never had an outbreak of ich resulting from such a re-arrangement, and I do the re-arranging during a water change, so the stress of both really can't be seperated. Once they get over the water change "shock" I feed, and they seem to settle into normal behavior, investigating the different nooks and crannies, and re-establishing different territories. If I make the re-arrangement into something I've had in the past, they don't seem to behave at all as if they remember "oh, seen this rock cave before."

Nature is stable, nature is also very dynamic. The shorelines of a river change with every flood season, every dry one. Depending upon the species of fish, I don't think many of them really have much of a memory to be as specific as to know the placements of rocks on the bottom of a stream. They may remember water chemistry, scent, current strength and pattern, or underlying geography such as magnetic navigation or gravitational pull, but I don't think they distinquish one rock from any other rock.
~~Colesea
 

Fishman24

Small Fish
May 12, 2003
43
0
0
48
Visit site
#17
I know that there is always the need to clean eveything and bleach everything so you feel that you have killed everything. The truth of the matter is that it is just a waste of time. You can bleach all you want and when you go to the store and by new fish and put them in they will probably get it. This is just part of the hobby. Just about every fish and every tank contains the parasites, just in low quantities. These parasites are normally present on every fish. If you don't have any fish then raise the temperature to 90 degreese and wait a week. You should be ok by then. Bring the temperature down and add your fish. I have had great success with coppersafe and it is good for 30 days. Just be careful because it is bad for certain fish and plants.

Ick although annoying is very curable and as time goes on it won't even be a big deal to you. You need to remember that the beginning of tanks are the most problems since you have so many things that are stressful. A lot of people also use a quarantine tank for 2 weeks or longer to make sure the fish is ok. This will eliminate having to medicate your main tank. If we are talking about small tanks then it may not be necessary. I personnaly make sure that I always have coppersafe in the water at 1 teaspoon per 4 gallons. I change about 10 gallons a week and I just add it back in when I make the change. If you want to remove it just by some carbon and put it in the filter and in a couple of days take it out and you have removed it.

Just a note. The white dots you see are the parasite pushing through the skin from the inside out. They have been there long before you noticed them. They are able to attack the fish once the fish has lost it's protective coating from stress. That is why a lot of people use salt or protective coat medications when the add new fish. It make a difference in my opinion.
 

Fishman24

Small Fish
May 12, 2003
43
0
0
48
Visit site
#18
In regards to changing tank decorations or moving tanks around. This is not always a good idea. The reason fish may seem more active is because they now need to re-establish there territories. This is not like your room where you know it is yours. They demonstrate and fight and chase to establish territories where they feel safe. This will always occur if you have fish that are territorial. This can also cause ick as it can stress out you weeker fish. As with everything there are always many factors and it will differ from tank to tank. It is best to set up and leave for a while in my opinion. If you have very aggressive fish however and you are having problems. Then you can change as it may create better lines of territories.
 

#19
I'm going to reiterate again....there are no fish in there anymore. I just want to try an cut down on the amount of the parasite that is left in the EMPTY tank. I am not asking how to get rid of it when it is in a tank with fish (I did use coppersafe, but I have no scaleless fish, invertabrates, and I just added the plants, but it was the only thing that would work - I tried several products all to no avail) And I know what the white dots are - I know what the cycle is, I know what kind of medicines to use to get rid of it. I do add stresscoat and salt regularly and quarantine my fish - except, of course, for the ones who add ich - go figure huh?:rolleyes:

I just want to say guys, :p that I am not that new to this :) I know about ich and its cycle and all that - and how stress is a big factor and diet and all that. All I was asking was how long does it take to die off because I don't want to put fish in there because the AMOUNT of ich in it is still so HIGH. But I think I'll just bleach everything - it needs to be cleaned anyway and no matter what you think about rearranging the tank, it won't matter because there are no fish in it to confuse.

I personally think it is necessary to change the decorations every once in a while. Especially when adding new fish that can be territorial or to a tank that has territorial fish. It helps eliminate the "this is my terrirtory" stuff that goes on and any aggression towards the new fish.
 

Fishman24

Small Fish
May 12, 2003
43
0
0
48
Visit site
#20
Leopardess I am sorry if I have caused any confussion however I am confussed myself. I believe you are trying to ask how long you need to wait for the ick to die off. This has been answered already and you will need to wait anywhere from 21 to a couple of days depending on the temperature. Some of my other comments were in regards to other discussions in your thread.

My advice and I will leave it at that. Since you have no fish just raise the temperature to 90 and wait a couple of days. The parasite will go through the three cycles faster and will not find a host. I would then do a water change and you should be ready to go.

There is no need to bleach and I advise against it but it is your decision. It serves no purpose except risking the chance of having a fish die unexpected for no reason down the road.

As far as aggression and moving the decorations i aggree with you that it can be used to your advantage but that is why I said it isn't always the best idea. Of course it can work but trust me it is not a good idea in most cases.

Good luck with what ever you decide.