Replacing fish while cycling....

[Brossy]

I tried to find some threads on this but didnt have any luck. So sorry in advance if this is a many time repeated question.

My son has a 10 gallon tank that we started 2 weeks ago from scratch. We started with 3 platties to seed the tank while cycling. Things have been going along great but we lost 2 platties today and the other one has ich. We did a 30% water change immediately and did our regular testing before the water change. Reading were normalish..PH - 7.2 - 7.4 Ammonia 2.0 Nitrite 0.25 Nitrate 10

What I am wondering is if it is ok for us to add more fish right away to continue the cycle...or do we need to start again?

Thanks for any input

 

[Etheostoma]

Hi!

Hoo boy, where to start. Ah, yes.

#1, read beginner sticky.
#2, if cycling with live fish, use "feeder" fish.

Please?

Then relate what you did right that didnt work. Anyone and, likely, nearly everyone will be all to happy to help.

Did you know that likely your most inexpensive tank stand for a 10g will most probably accomodate two 10g tanks?

We're mostly about promoting aquaholism, mostly.

 

[Salty Fishes]

An ammonia level of 2 will kill your fish. You should start doing daily water changes of about 40% during your cycle to bring those levels back down.

The fact that you have nitrate is a good sign, it means that your cycle is moving along well.

Platties aren't exactly the hardiest of fish. Very hardy fish are generally used in fish-in cycling because it puts an enormous amount of stress on the fish (so I don't know why you would want to use feeder fish for a cycle, they seem like they would be some of the least hardy fish to me...) Definately hold off on getting any fish until you cure the remaining platty's ick. Actually, you should hold off on getting any more fish until you get your ammonia readings under control.

 

[Etheostoma]

Feeder goldfish, at least those I get, are exceptionally hardy. Got to hit them with a hammer to kill them. That and they're $1/doz. makes it an easy decision for me.

If you've got alternative suggestions, please share! I'd be happy to give them a shot when I next cycle a tank.

 

[seastaar88]

that's why i'm a fan of the fishless cycle.

 

[lostnconfused]

I dont know if guppies are "hardy fish" but the ones I have are lil' soldiers... I bought them when I started my tank, not knowing about cycling, or fishless cycle for that matter, (about a month ago or so) and there still alive and well. I also have platys now but one of them passed away I had bought some bio-spira and bought the rest of my fish, thinking everything would be ok, but the bio-spira I bought wasnt kept refrigerated at the store, so it didnt do anything for me. But my cycle is moving along great now, so hopefully I wont have anymore casualties. I wouldnt get any other fish right now if I were you, like salty fishes said. Wait until you get 0 readings on ammonia and nitrite, then add a couple more. When your readings are under control again, add a couple more, and so forth...

 

[FroggyFox]

You really dont want to wait until you have 0 readings, because then all of the bacteria you tried so hard to get will be starving. I'd say leave everything alone for now (you might want to do a water change, but you say you already did one and 2ppm of ammonia is not the end of the world...esp now that you have 1/3 of the fish to create more ammonia) If your last remaining fish makes it through the ick, you might add another fish or two, or you might just want to leave it as is until the cycle is finished. If the remaining fish doesn't make it...you might be prepared for that and look up the info for fishless cycling.

Also, reading the information in the stickies about cycling (top of the beginner forum) will give you some tips and tricks about how to speed up a cycle (higher temp, seeding etc)

I would agree that I would not use feeder fish for a cycling. A couple reasons for that. #1 most feeder fish are not 'clean' ie. you could be bringing sickness or contamination into your tank...and you really dont want to do that. #2 they may not be the hardiest of fish. and #3 I like to have fish in the tank that I plan on keeping. This is why if I HAVE to fish-in cycle it would be with a hardy species like zebra danios. I am also a big fan of fishless cycling because its quick and easy...and after the first time you really dont have to worry about it again! If you set up another tank you have an established tank to pull bacteria from and seed the new tank, making any following cycling's go very very quickly.

 

[Etheostoma]

You're right about disease. Most times the feeders I get come with a free case of ich. However, I usually get through without any mortalities attributable to the parasite.

I keep seeing posts saying feeders aren't hardy, but nobody seems to suggest any specific alternative. I'm waiting for those suggestions.

Thanks!

 

[FroggyFox]

"#3 I like to have fish in the tank that I plan on keeping. This is why if I HAVE to fish-in cycle it would be with a hardy species like zebra danios."

 

[Brossy]

Thanks for the input everyone. My son lost the 3rd platy. We started a tank for my daughter at the same time and hers is coming along great. I think this time we will do a fishless cycle for my son and go from there. Really appreciate all the help...thanks again.

 

[crissy7399]

I was also told the platys are hardy fish. of course every LFS I go to says something else! But I agree Brossy, I wish I would have known about the fishless cycle.

Froggy Fox. I read your post about don't wait till your readings are zero. I'm trying to figure it out, but I'm fairly new to the "fish" thing. Could you give a little more explaination on that reasoning?

Another question for you all. How can she have such high ammonia when she's already getting nitrate readings? I thought your ammonia is practically zero by the time you start getting a reading for nitrate? I could see it if there was a dramatic increase of new fish.

Also, as far as I have understood, having a "normalish" reading would be more like Ammonia = zero, Nitrite = zero, Nitrate = under 30-40., RIGHT??

Good luck Brossy

 

[FroggyFox]

Brossy - sorry about the loss. The good news is that you have already made some good headway with your cycle though...so dont clean out your filter, dont do any water changes...and just find some ammonia to continue where your fish left off if you haven't already Good luck!

Crissy - Sorry if I wasn't completely clear on that one. People were suggesting that Brossy should do water changes to get all of the levels down to 0, but if there is little to no waste going into the water then the bacteria that turn the ammonia into nitrites and nitrites into nitrates will starve and she would have wasted all the time already spent cycling and cultivating those bacteria.

You are totally correct that a "normal" established tank reading will be 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and less than 20 nitrates...but it doesn't count if you got those levels there because you just did a bunch of water changes.

Lostandconfused WAS right that that is how you slowly stock a tank once the cycle is over...wait at least a week or so for the ammonia and nitrite to be at 0 before you add anymore fish. I just didn't want to that to get confused with right now, that Brossy's tank is still cycling and doing water changes to make the ammonia and nitrite levels 0 would not be the same as finishing up the cycle because the tank will just spike again as soon as fish are added. Does that make more sense?

As for nitrates showing up while they still have ammonia, not sure. Its possible that they are using a product like amquel that messes with ammonia readings, or that they've been doing a lot of water changes and the cycle is progressing slowly. Generally you'll see the ammonia spike and then hit 0 before the nitrates start showing up, but thats not always the case. The important numbers are 0 0 and under 20...whatever order they get that way really doesn't matter a whole lot.

 

[Salty Fishes]

Another question for you all. How can she have such high ammonia when she's already getting nitrate readings? I thought your ammonia is practically zero by the time you start getting a reading for nitrate? I could see it if there was a dramatic increase of new fish.

I'm pretty sure that there are two separate types of bacteria that are involved in cycling. One converts ammonia to nitrite, the other converts nitrite to nitrate. If this is correct, then its possible that the nitrite-->nitrate bacteria have become established in this tank much faster than the ammonia-->nitrite bacteria. Which would make sense with the readings: a lot of ammonia, very little nitrite, and a good deal of nitrate.

As for hardy fish that might survive cycling, most people say zebra danios. I have heard others say cherry barbs, or even guppies, but zebra danios would be someone's best bet.

 

[Brossy]

FroggyFox - We lost the last fish yesterday and I let the tank run till tonight. I just went and checked the ammonia levels and was going to add ammonia to it but ofcourse I did a test first and found the ammonia levels still at 2.0 It almost seems as if there isnt any bacteria working in the filter. Should I be adding the Cycle bacteria additive or just bump the ammonia up to 5.0 and wait and see?

Crissy - I think your right, our LFS said that a fishless cycle could work but still might have an adverse effect on our fish when we add them later. They said to start with hardy fish and work through the cycle. I guess they sell more fish that way. Thanks!

 

[FroggyFox]

Brossy - due to the fact that you HAVE nitrites and nitrates means you do have bacteria in there Just not a lot (unless you have either nitrites or nitrates in your tap??). Its your choice if you want to just watch that ammonia level and if it drops much lower add a tiny bit to bump it back up. Just be sure not to get it over 5 or so because then you'll have to do water changes to get it back down. After awhile though the ammonia should be disappearing after 24 hours so you just need to keep adding in some every day when that starts happening.

Cycle really doesn't do anything...you can add it now if you'd like. If you want to add something that really works invest in some biospira, replace the water in your tank with fresh dechlorinated water and stock your fish (according to the label on the biospira) Pretty much any other product that claims to help out a cycle isn't going to help.

If you haven't already, bump your temperature up over 80 to help your bacteria out as much as possible.

Most LFS' wont even acknowledge a fishless cycle and look at you like you have three heads when/if you mention it. Kinda sad really. You're totally right though...they do sell more fish like that.