School ecosystem experiments
- Thread starter ChazECJr
- Start date
R
Is there any e-mail address? As a school experiment, what kind of teacher is teaching? The conclusion is utterly sick. Sick isnt even the right word. Totally stupid. I cant believe our schools are teaching such stupidity. A "closed ecosystem"? Maybe I'm missing something but are not all fish aquariums 'closed ecosystems'?!!!!!!!!!!!! :
Sick, sick, sick! Such misinformation!
Sick, sick, sick! Such misinformation!
Interesting. He judged it successful even though like 50% of the population died. I didn't bother to read the report - did he clean it ever?
I'd caution to you not hold your flamey emails to this guy in check though... there's lotsa stuff going down for science that's much more gross. Or at least, if you must say something, try to be well spoken.
I'd caution to you not hold your flamey emails to this guy in check though... there's lotsa stuff going down for science that's much more gross. Or at least, if you must say something, try to be well spoken.
This does sound like a high school science fair project. The research is incomplete though, but that's to be expected from a novice scientist. They don't have access to the proper resources, or are aware of where to obtain them. The teacher could be held responsible perhaps, but look at the assignment. Compare a closed ecosystem to those observed in nature. The tragic flaw is that either the teacher failed to inform the student, or the student totally missed the point of the lesson -THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CLOSED ECOSYSTEM IN NATURE-! This fact was totally excluded from the conclusion. And, in all fairness, it is simply because the student has a long way yet to learn. They focused on their experiment alone. If you read the conclusion, you can tell the student hadn't the foresight to see beyond their own jar. The goal was to have the betta survive, it did, so to the student, regardless of what else happened, the experiment was a success. We adults can see the experiment as a failure because of the 50% death rate, and we can develop questions such as "did the student remove the bodies of the dead? How did the decompostion affect the jar?" because we have years more of knowledge in our head. We -know- to ask these questions because we have a bit more above-average knowledge in aquatic systems than most people. A person is not actually trained that any experiment you do has to be for "the greater good" until you have to learn how to write grant proposals<G>. Then you have to convince some corporate individual how giving you money for digging up critters at the bottom of the ocean relates too and will benefit joe smoe in the long run.
I would agree with withholding the flaming folks. Keep in mind that this individual probably didn't know any better and was meerly experimenting with the abstract concepts discussed in class. In high school, they do teach an awful lot of theory, especially in biology, and sometimes those theories are hard to grasp without the concrete evidance. Especially for high schoolers, since their minds have yet to develop the capacity for learning from other people's actions and apply it to their own. They have to do it themselves for it to have any meaning to them. It is hard to learn about an ecosystem when sitting in a classroom. The examples are ususally poor, and sometimes can't be related to simply because the student has a lack of referance. I remember sitting in college biology classes myself going "huh-wha?" alot until I actually got to my field classes. I think the biggest kick I got out of my zoology class was during the rat dissection. Did you know kidneys are actually kidney shaped? That was totally mind blowing to me, to see a real kidney, to see that it is actually kidney shaped, and that is how kidney beans, and kidney shaped pools, and other stuff got to be called their names, because they are actually shaped like kidneys. No computer generated rat dissection would've ever made me feel the sense of discovery that dissecting a rat myself did.
Give the student (and teacher) a break. If you feel like writing to them, keep it constructive. Offer advice on how they may have designed the experiment better. Offer then links and resources on ecosystems and why closed ecosystems fail. We don't know what grade the student got, perhaps the teacher noticed the "failure" of the experiment and guided the student apporiately. Offer an alternitive view of the results. But don't go bashing and flaming and playing high and mighty. Yes, a few fish may have suffered and died, that is unfortunate. But if you impeaded someone's ability to learn from the experience, you're not doing a world of good at all. You may only end up turning another brilliant mind off to education completely.
If you want to bash research experiments, become a researcher. Dude, I've been to some presentations and scientific meeting of the minds before. Talk about competitiveness! It's everybody rip everybody to shreds in those things! If your collegees find one flaw with your conclusion, methodology, or they just don't like you, they're all over you. But then again, they're all suppose to be adults and able to handle the constructive criticism right? And such bloodthirstiness only makes the science stronger by demanding people do quality research.
~~Colesea
I would agree with withholding the flaming folks. Keep in mind that this individual probably didn't know any better and was meerly experimenting with the abstract concepts discussed in class. In high school, they do teach an awful lot of theory, especially in biology, and sometimes those theories are hard to grasp without the concrete evidance. Especially for high schoolers, since their minds have yet to develop the capacity for learning from other people's actions and apply it to their own. They have to do it themselves for it to have any meaning to them. It is hard to learn about an ecosystem when sitting in a classroom. The examples are ususally poor, and sometimes can't be related to simply because the student has a lack of referance. I remember sitting in college biology classes myself going "huh-wha?" alot until I actually got to my field classes. I think the biggest kick I got out of my zoology class was during the rat dissection. Did you know kidneys are actually kidney shaped? That was totally mind blowing to me, to see a real kidney, to see that it is actually kidney shaped, and that is how kidney beans, and kidney shaped pools, and other stuff got to be called their names, because they are actually shaped like kidneys. No computer generated rat dissection would've ever made me feel the sense of discovery that dissecting a rat myself did.
Give the student (and teacher) a break. If you feel like writing to them, keep it constructive. Offer advice on how they may have designed the experiment better. Offer then links and resources on ecosystems and why closed ecosystems fail. We don't know what grade the student got, perhaps the teacher noticed the "failure" of the experiment and guided the student apporiately. Offer an alternitive view of the results. But don't go bashing and flaming and playing high and mighty. Yes, a few fish may have suffered and died, that is unfortunate. But if you impeaded someone's ability to learn from the experience, you're not doing a world of good at all. You may only end up turning another brilliant mind off to education completely.
If you want to bash research experiments, become a researcher. Dude, I've been to some presentations and scientific meeting of the minds before. Talk about competitiveness! It's everybody rip everybody to shreds in those things! If your collegees find one flaw with your conclusion, methodology, or they just don't like you, they're all over you. But then again, they're all suppose to be adults and able to handle the constructive criticism right? And such bloodthirstiness only makes the science stronger by demanding people do quality research.
~~Colesea
R
O, forget the "Mr. Nice Guy" jargon! I think its time to go for a lynching. *crazysmiley* Its one thing if you do not know better but come on, this is a school project. I remember my science projects where I did to study the subject to gain knowledge about it to write a valid conclusion that kind of made sense. This person is 16 years old not 8 and studying didnt seem to come up anywhere.
I tried looking for a e-mail address but could not find one. :'( I wouldnt of flamed him anyways but instead stepped him thru the ABC's of fish hobby. 7 tetras, 3 bettas, 10 shrimp? This is just hiliarous.
"Day 4 Monday 3/4/02mutalism- tetras and shrimp eat dead fish, Predation-betta eat shrimp" - What kind of tetras? Piranha tetras?
"Day 7 Thursday 3/7/02 Time:1:04 p.m.commensalism-when female betta died, snail sucked its blood" - New type of snail? Vampire Snails!! :
"plants have grown because of fish feces" - Cool! No more vacuuming in my tank!
"part of the anacharis plant is broken off and floating at the bottom" - Could it be because it is dying? No fertilizer or C02?
"rust buildup on jar" - Thats always a good thing!
"We also put in 7 tetras to complete our trophic level and to be used as a source of food." - Tetras as source of food? There must be a piranha in there somewhere! My discus dont even eat my tetras and they are 3x the size of bettas.
"Also, the more plants there are the more oxygen(O2) they will give off to the fish(and we used medium-sized gravel so that waste could seep through)." - What about enough C02? what about at night? The waste seep through the gravel? Down to where? the bottom of the jar? Really??!!! *laughingcryingsmiley* *laughingcryingsmiley*
"Lastly, the tetras survived only 2 weeks until the betas ate them." - Hmm! Maybe they died because of ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. No testing of water at all.
"I think that I would use different varieties of fish if I had to improve it." - What different varieties? Discus are tropical too?
"Our success was that the betas, the central of our ecosystem, survived." - Well, he could be a brain surgen. I mean, if a betta survives in the hoof print of an ox for a couple of months, a jar with tetras and shrimp as food and plants is a dream. Really, research of the fish would of told you that. No water changes, no feedings, just nothing. Put in all together and lock it up.
The experiment was a success. The snails had babies! Yahoo! *thumbsupsmiley*
Ok, ok! Im being a little harsh but come on, give me a break. This cant be real. Pinch, pinch!
I tried looking for a e-mail address but could not find one. :'( I wouldnt of flamed him anyways but instead stepped him thru the ABC's of fish hobby. 7 tetras, 3 bettas, 10 shrimp? This is just hiliarous.
"Day 4 Monday 3/4/02mutalism- tetras and shrimp eat dead fish, Predation-betta eat shrimp" - What kind of tetras? Piranha tetras?
"Day 7 Thursday 3/7/02 Time:1:04 p.m.commensalism-when female betta died, snail sucked its blood" - New type of snail? Vampire Snails!! :
"plants have grown because of fish feces" - Cool! No more vacuuming in my tank!
"part of the anacharis plant is broken off and floating at the bottom" - Could it be because it is dying? No fertilizer or C02?
"rust buildup on jar" - Thats always a good thing!
"We also put in 7 tetras to complete our trophic level and to be used as a source of food." - Tetras as source of food? There must be a piranha in there somewhere! My discus dont even eat my tetras and they are 3x the size of bettas.
"Also, the more plants there are the more oxygen(O2) they will give off to the fish(and we used medium-sized gravel so that waste could seep through)." - What about enough C02? what about at night? The waste seep through the gravel? Down to where? the bottom of the jar? Really??!!! *laughingcryingsmiley* *laughingcryingsmiley*
"Lastly, the tetras survived only 2 weeks until the betas ate them." - Hmm! Maybe they died because of ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. No testing of water at all.
"I think that I would use different varieties of fish if I had to improve it." - What different varieties? Discus are tropical too?
"Our success was that the betas, the central of our ecosystem, survived." - Well, he could be a brain surgen. I mean, if a betta survives in the hoof print of an ox for a couple of months, a jar with tetras and shrimp as food and plants is a dream. Really, research of the fish would of told you that. No water changes, no feedings, just nothing. Put in all together and lock it up.
The experiment was a success. The snails had babies! Yahoo! *thumbsupsmiley*
Ok, ok! Im being a little harsh but come on, give me a break. This cant be real. Pinch, pinch!
I would remind you that the burger you ate yesterday probably endured far more terrifying conditions when it was called Cow.
No ... I'm not getting all PETA on you (Myslef? I like a good burger). I just wanted to point out that things are rarely black and white. Shades of grey is more accurate.
Or the leather coat you wear. Or your shoes.
Or the fact that if you drive a car, you are causing widespread damage to the global ecosystem.
Yet we do these things and more, on a daily basis.
The point? Perspective. In this case, at least the fish died to teach a student something. I know it's not ideal ... we would prefer if there was a way to illustrate the point without killing a bunch of fish and whatnot (and I'm sure there is a way hehe), but at least the fish didn't die for fun or entertainment. Or pointlessly like roadkill. Or out of neglect like that poor puppy I see chained out in the backyard near my house every day (sometimes I sneak him water).
The point is ... I dunno. I guess I wouldn't feel right flaming since I probably commit worse "crimes" on a daily basis by the very nature of my existence.
No ... I'm not getting all PETA on you (Myslef? I like a good burger). I just wanted to point out that things are rarely black and white. Shades of grey is more accurate.
Or the leather coat you wear. Or your shoes.
Or the fact that if you drive a car, you are causing widespread damage to the global ecosystem.
Yet we do these things and more, on a daily basis.
The point? Perspective. In this case, at least the fish died to teach a student something. I know it's not ideal ... we would prefer if there was a way to illustrate the point without killing a bunch of fish and whatnot (and I'm sure there is a way hehe), but at least the fish didn't die for fun or entertainment. Or pointlessly like roadkill. Or out of neglect like that poor puppy I see chained out in the backyard near my house every day (sometimes I sneak him water).
The point is ... I dunno. I guess I wouldn't feel right flaming since I probably commit worse "crimes" on a daily basis by the very nature of my existence.
R
Well, I think that you totally missed my point (or maybe I missed yours) and maybe your responding to colesea.
I'm not sure because the fish died that it taught the student something. I mean, why did the tetras die? No water testing was done and hey, the water was clear so that cant be the problem. Maybe it was the snails sucking the tetras blood. Ya, thats it. Well, talk about misinformation right from the start.
All I can say is that millions of people are misinformed about 'fish'. I heard over and over again myths and I just can not believe that people are so naive and think its just as simple as adding water and fish. I mean, what else does a fish need besides water?
I must be cranky today. O well! >
I'm not sure because the fish died that it taught the student something. I mean, why did the tetras die? No water testing was done and hey, the water was clear so that cant be the problem. Maybe it was the snails sucking the tetras blood. Ya, thats it. Well, talk about misinformation right from the start.
All I can say is that millions of people are misinformed about 'fish'. I heard over and over again myths and I just can not believe that people are so naive and think its just as simple as adding water and fish. I mean, what else does a fish need besides water?
I must be cranky today. O well! >
Backdraft wrote:
"Or the fact that if you drive a car, you are causing widespread damage to the global ecosystem."
Please don't buy into this environmentalist extremist/media hype stuff, we are not "destroying the Earth" when we drive our cars.
But otherwise, I agree, we do use/kill animals all the time to serve our needs. However I can't help but think that the teacher could have guided the design of the experiment a little better. They could have left out the bettas and used only three tetras. At the end of the experiment they would have observed/learned a few things:
Fish can't live in such a system without aeration/filtration (don't buy Aquababies!)
Snails and shrimp can survive (for awhile) without aeration/filtration.
Sunlight can cause plant growth, plants can provide food and O2 for the inverts (pearling), inverts can provide CO2 for plants. Yes I know this doesn't happen at night but the animals will be less active at night and need less O2.
Shrimp can live off baby snails - for awhile anyway.
The water should have been tested regularly so it would be seen that the fish deaths corresponded (I would think) with high ammonia. Perhaps a water change then would have resulted in more of the shrimp survivng.
No a closed ecosystem will not work well for long but it can work to an extent for a limited time and the students can learn something from such a system that would back up what would otherwise be just "book learning." And if they did it my way fewer animals would be dead now...
BTW, Have any of our "younger members" been involved in such an experiment in school??
"Or the fact that if you drive a car, you are causing widespread damage to the global ecosystem."
Please don't buy into this environmentalist extremist/media hype stuff, we are not "destroying the Earth" when we drive our cars.
But otherwise, I agree, we do use/kill animals all the time to serve our needs. However I can't help but think that the teacher could have guided the design of the experiment a little better. They could have left out the bettas and used only three tetras. At the end of the experiment they would have observed/learned a few things:
Fish can't live in such a system without aeration/filtration (don't buy Aquababies!)
Snails and shrimp can survive (for awhile) without aeration/filtration.
Sunlight can cause plant growth, plants can provide food and O2 for the inverts (pearling), inverts can provide CO2 for plants. Yes I know this doesn't happen at night but the animals will be less active at night and need less O2.
Shrimp can live off baby snails - for awhile anyway.
The water should have been tested regularly so it would be seen that the fish deaths corresponded (I would think) with high ammonia. Perhaps a water change then would have resulted in more of the shrimp survivng.
No a closed ecosystem will not work well for long but it can work to an extent for a limited time and the students can learn something from such a system that would back up what would otherwise be just "book learning." And if they did it my way fewer animals would be dead now...
BTW, Have any of our "younger members" been involved in such an experiment in school??
R
I dont think that the fish could provide enough C02 for the plants. You would need more fish that is why you need C02 injection in tanks. Nominal levels w/o C02 injection is 3-5ppm. Ideal levels 15-20ppm.
Maybe I dont know this but you mentioned "plants can provide food". What you do mean by that?
Maybe I dont know this but you mentioned "plants can provide food". What you do mean by that?
Well it looked like at least some of the plants did well in there so they must have had enough CO2 for some growth. Hmm, perhaps one betta would be needed to give the plants CO2, I'm not sure...
I think snails eat plants to some extent. They eat algae if nothing else, and I thought shrimp sometimes picked food off plants (microorganisms/algae perhaps)?
I'm not endorsing this set up as a good way to keep these plants and animals. But, however they did it, the plants, snails, and several of the shrimp did manage to survive...as did two of the bettas.
I think snails eat plants to some extent. They eat algae if nothing else, and I thought shrimp sometimes picked food off plants (microorganisms/algae perhaps)?
I'm not endorsing this set up as a good way to keep these plants and animals. But, however they did it, the plants, snails, and several of the shrimp did manage to survive...as did two of the bettas.
R
One betta would not provide enough C02. The plants were doing ok in the beginning and that is because plants store nutrients. They use up these nutrients when they can not get them from the surroundings. After that however, the plant starts dying.
Depending on the snails, yes some snails eat plants. Those are 'bad' snails. Good snails will eat algae. That is correct. But snails do not suck blood. Im not sure about shrimp. I know some shrimp eat algae also.
Interestingly enough, bettas will survive most anything.
Depending on the snails, yes some snails eat plants. Those are 'bad' snails. Good snails will eat algae. That is correct. But snails do not suck blood. Im not sure about shrimp. I know some shrimp eat algae also.
Interestingly enough, bettas will survive most anything.
"Please don't buy into this environmentalist extremist/media hype stuff, we are not "destroying the Earth" when we drive our cars. "
Discount it as extemist or nonsense if you like. That's your call. I wasn't trying to get all militant - I love my vehicle and use it as much as the next person. However, I am aware that when I drive my vehicle, it does impact our environment.
Maybe I should restate my point: It's retarded to argue about this. Are any of you going to do anything other than complain about it? Probably not. I suggest you focus your energy in a more suitable direction. If you really feel the need to stop animal cruelty, there are much better ways to do it. Writing a big flamey email to some teacher in Honolulu is moronic.
*shrug*
Discount it as extemist or nonsense if you like. That's your call. I wasn't trying to get all militant - I love my vehicle and use it as much as the next person. However, I am aware that when I drive my vehicle, it does impact our environment.
Maybe I should restate my point: It's retarded to argue about this. Are any of you going to do anything other than complain about it? Probably not. I suggest you focus your energy in a more suitable direction. If you really feel the need to stop animal cruelty, there are much better ways to do it. Writing a big flamey email to some teacher in Honolulu is moronic.
*shrug*
R
Im not entirely sure as to where anyone did mention sending flaming/bashing e-mails. My point thru this entirely session has been the lack of research/information and that we should be promoting 'research, research, research' more than anything else. Without this information, we would not be doing any better either.
Just my two bits. Nothing personal, just being me. :
Just my two bits. Nothing personal, just being me. :
I came into this topic a little late, but I would also like to voice an opinion, for starters.. I'm 14,, maybe that doesn't mean much to any of you, but i realize that they probably only had 1 to 2 class period to design this.. so thats what, an hour, and hour and a half. Also, I can garantee none of them were even a little bit into fish, and were probably only doing this so they passed the class..when you think about how much thought went into this from a 16 yr old, who probably didnt know anything, it's quite a bit.. The "Closed Ecosystem" was also the assignment, did you read the page.. it was in the first line.. there is not such thing as a closed ecosystem, thats very obvious, but to someone who was not into fish, or really cared, there results were pretty good. When you were in High School (any of you) did you know as much about fish as you do know? Did you know not to put that many fihs in such a small area? Did you know there was no such thing as a closed ecosystem? They had enough sense not to put 3 male bettas together.. I'll get to my point now.. When you were 16 yrs. old, and had 1 day to plan this project, would you have had enough sense to put this all together, if you knew nuthing about fish, and only wanted to pass the class, so you could get your credit and be on with it????
Anyone who claims to have created an ecosphere in such a small enviorment has not only failed to do so, but fails to realize the countless number of factors present in any small portion of a natural habitat. With a little work, and a lot of knowledge it`s possible to create a situaton where two or more species can form some kind of mutually benifical, or symbiotic relationship. However if you put a predatory fish in a tank with a plant, insert a few feeders, and judge it to be an ecosphere it`s wrong. An ecosphere is something that forms over millions of years with numerous plant, animal, and even viral lifeforms. If you try to replicate this in a small container your results would probably be dismal. Hopefully the one conclusion that people should draw in this type of experiment is that it`s futile to attempt it.
If a teacher wants a student to see how various plant and animal life react to each other the more responsible thing to do would be to take a field trip. While science can get a appear to be cruel or gross to some, it can be benificial overall if done responsibly. I think in many cases experiments do nothing more than highlight our own ignorance.
If a teacher wants a student to see how various plant and animal life react to each other the more responsible thing to do would be to take a field trip. While science can get a appear to be cruel or gross to some, it can be benificial overall if done responsibly. I think in many cases experiments do nothing more than highlight our own ignorance.