Soft ,Salty, Brakish or What?

Oct 22, 2002
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#1
I don't know maybe I've just gotten too much Goofy info on these sites that I don't know what what. I've been trying to find out how much salt to put into my 55 gallon planted Gourami tank. Now I had the impression that gouramis were brackish fish, but I don't know if that is true or not. I had that impression because they prefer soft water. Salt water is soft right? Right? I don't know. Very confused. If someone  out there actually knows what they are actually talking about please let me know.  willow@mtdata.com   Type in Subject
(Salty) ???
 

Oct 22, 2002
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#2
soft water is water without a lot of dissolved minerals in it.  I think that salt water could be hard or soft.  No book I've read has made reference to gouramis liking brackish water, so I think they like fresh..
 

colesea

Superstar Fish
Oct 22, 2002
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#3
Okay, the basics of high school water chemistry.

Salt water is considtered any water with a NaCl (salt) content of above 5ppt on a hydrometer. A hydrometer is a devise that roughtly determines the concentration of salt in the water by parts per thousand. Your local fish store should have hydrometers in stock if you've never seen one before.

Fresh water (sometimes called "sweet" water depending upon what country you come from) is considered any water with an NaCl (salt) concentration of less than 5ppt. Fresh water can be either soft or hard.

=Hard= freshwater is water that has a high mineral content, usually characterized by a high pH and alkaline buffering properties. Those minerals can be Calcium, Magnesium, Gold, Zinc, or any other cation on the periodic table. To make it easier to visualize, hard water is water with a rock dissolved in it. Hardness is measured in degrees of general hardness or as in the case of planted aquariums, in degrees of calcium hardness as well.  NaCl salt is considered a mineral, therefore all salt water is always hard water.

=Soft= water is water with very litter mineral content, usually characterized by acidic properties and a low pH. Soft water will include very very little if any at all NaCl salt in it. To help visualize it, soft water is similar to tea water.

Reverse osmosis water is water without any mineral content at all. This water is pure neutral at pH 7.0. RO water is bad for fishies because fish do need minerals in their water to be healthy. This is where most aquarist will add aquarium salts to their tank to give their fish the proper mineral balance.

Brackish water is any water with a NaCl salt concentration between 5ppt and 32ppt. Greater than 32ppt is considered average oceanic salinities. Because of the salt content, brackish water is always hard water.

Gouramis are freshwater fish and will usually adapt to a wide range of pH or water hardness/softness. Sometimes aquarist will recommend adding small amounts of salt to a tank to simply provide the fish with osmotic regulation and some minerals for good health. If you purchase a packet of aquarium salt (not sea salts) you can add the recommended amount without ill effect.  Gouramis are not a brackish water fish.
~~Colesea
 

Oct 22, 2002
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#4
Now wait just a minute! thank you for your exsensive info, but I'm still confused. If you say water with salt in it is Hard. Then why do people  use salt to Soften their water Dumby. These sites are useless. You people don't know a damn thing.  >:(
 

Oct 22, 2002
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#5
Now wait just a minute! thank you for your exsensive info, but I'm still confused. If you say water with salt in it is Hard. Then why do people  use salt to Soften their water Dumby. These sites are useless. You people don't know a damn thing.  >:(
 

fishboy

Superstar Fish
Oct 22, 2002
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#6
I spent like 15 min on this post trying to form it into fairly nice soo.............


Hey,Hey hey..... calm down...... Also childish names arent for this board....... even i have better manners than that and i am younger than you. :p Another thing please dont insult the site or the people on it......



Well anyway, i dont think people use salts to soften the water..... unless  you you have Sodium Biphosphate confused which is used to lower the Ph and hardness.Most items such as Ph down, discus buffer,etc will do this.Also like Cole said it is anything below 7. Sodium Bicarbonate on the other hand mostly is used to raise Ph and Hardness. African cichlid SALTS will also do this. This is anything above 7 with 7 being neutral.


Basically what Cole said for the rest ;)...


Just my personaly experience: I have usually had gouramis do better in fresh with a ph of about 7.8
 

colesea

Superstar Fish
Oct 22, 2002
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#7
I apparently know a little more than you since I don't have to ask questions about water chemistry (ah hem)..I never said a person would use salt to soften their water.

That aside, I think I also explained this defination once before on another thread, but it does bear repeating apparently.

In chemistry and scientific terms, the words salt and mineral are interchangable and frequently even redundently used together. Haven't you ever heard of mineral salts? All salts are minerals.

Having the right quanity of mineral/salts in their water is just as important to fish as to us getting the right amount of zinc, iron, and electrolytes in our diets.  We don't think about it until we have a defeciencies in them. Same with fish. Fish kept in pure RO water (water that contains no minerals or salts of any kind) die just as we would die if we only drank RO water as the sole source of minerals in our diet. Even the bottled water we drink has minerals in it, often artificially replaced by the manufacturer.  

And that what aquarist must do to recreate the right balance of mineral/salts in their tanks for their fish.  Soft freshwater has very little mineral/salt content in it, but it must have =some= in there to provide the fish with what they need for proper physiological funtioning. The fish that live in soft freshwater are adapted to low mineral contents. To achieve soft water, the old-school method of doing so was to filter it though peat. Peat filtering would move a lot of the mineral content of the water, lower the pH, yet leave behind enough minerals to give the fish the balance they needed. The new-school method is to use RO water (water that has been completely de-salted/de-mineralized) and then artifically add the proper salt/mineral content back to it to achieve the balance the fish need.

In the instance where you are using RO water to supply the tank, then yes, you would have to add salts back to the soft freshwater of the tank.

Hard freshwater has a lot of minerals in it. While all minerals are salts and all salts are minerals, not all salts are NaCl. Hard freshwater has a high concentration of minerals such as calcium carbonate and other carbonate/bicarbonate salts, but doesn't necessarily have a high concentration of sodium chloride. African Cichlid salts increase the mineral content of the water they are added to in the correct proportions for those fish without increasing the concentration of NaCl to where it would qualitify as saltwater (defined by NaCl concentration).

Technically it is possible to have saltwater without any NaCl in it, but that is just a matter of scientific semantics.

Saltwater, because of the inherited high mineral concentration from NaCl is hard water. But just because it has high concentrations of NaCl does not make that salt water SEAwater. SEAwater, which is what most marine aquarist must artificially create in their tanks, contain more varieties of minerals other than NaCl salts, including gold and silver, zinc, iron, lead, and copper, in the ratios that they need to be to support life.

Fish kept in strait NaCl saltwater would die just as much as fish kept in strait RO water would.

If you have questions about buffers, go ask your high school chemistry teacher.
~~Colesea
 

Oct 22, 2002
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#8
Sorry I snapped. As I said before I think I've gotten too much goofy info off these sites and even the owner of my LFS doesn't know the answer. I'm still confused on this whole thing. Mostly about the water hardness being effected by salt. I worked in a kitchen that had really Hard water and it reacked havoc with our equipment. To Soften the water we used a device that added salt to the water. So how does adding more minerals to water with a high mineral content lower the amount????
You don't have to answer that I'm just trying to give you a picture of why I'm so confused by this whole thing. The info you just gave me ( and I do thank you) was allot more helpful as far as the Hardness and Ph thing. Thanks.
 

#9
The "salt" used in houses to soften water is basically an EXCHANGE of minerals. The hardwater minerals are bound to the "salt" mix in the softener. It is not recommended to use "salt" softened water for fish because of this. All you've done is exchange one mineral for another, the new one(s) being easier to lather detergents with, and less likely to cause "hard" water stains.

Very oversimplified, but basically that's it. All salt is not salt as we usually think of it.
 

colesea

Superstar Fish
Oct 22, 2002
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#10
Ion exchange in which Ca+2 is exhanged for 2Na+. The Na comes from the NaCl resin that the water is passed over. Calcium breaks the bonds of the NaCl and stays behind to bind to the Cl while the sodium goes off to create sodium bicarbonate with the remaining CO3 in the water. You still have freshwater this way because there is no NaCl in your water, just the sodium. Sodium bicarbonate is a buffer, but too much of it is not a good thing for fishies because in essence it keeps the pH from changing, and you will probably still get high pH readings. Sodium bicarbonate is just easier to clean with than calcium carbonate.

As Luvs said, this isn't the perfered method to go in fish tanks because all you're doing is exhanging minersals, not removing them. Soft water requires the removal of minerals compeltely.

A really good read is -The Manual of Fish Health- put out by TetraPress. I bought mine at Boarders. That book as an awesome chapter dedicated to the properties of water.
~~Colesea