Something's up. :(

[fisherjean]

ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 5
ph I've gotten 2 different readings 7.0 and 6.8.

ph had been reading a consistent 7.4 until the last 2 days, when I did 2 50% water changes (1 change per day), because I'd been out with a high fever all week and the nitrates were at 40.

I've been using r/o water only, and have just now learned that (duh) I need to be adding minerals back in.

I don't have liquid hardness tests, only the last of the 5-in-1 strips I bought prior to getting the liquid master kit cover that base: I'm getting 0 GH and 0 KH with the strips.

Ok so one of the black phantoms has been acting shy, swimming in place in the shadow of a decoration for 3 days or so. This morning the other one joined him. #1 now has started swim, swim, swim in place, pause while tail starts to float up, swim, swim, swim in place, pause while tail starts to float up.

I can't see anything visible on either fish.

I assume this is from the nitrates and/or subsequent large water changes, OR it's a r/o water quality issue. The only other thing I can think of is that I haven't put the plants back in yet, I'm still cleaning them. But there's several other hiding spots still in the tank...

I bought some Kent R/O Right and I'm going to work up a dose for the whole tank over the next 36 hours or so unless you guys think I should do the whole thing at once - I assumed gradual is better but I don't know.

I think I'd like to work incrementally towards mixing r/o and tap after we're through whatever's going on right now.

Anyway, sorry this is so rambly and long. Ideas?

 

[aakaakaak]

My guess (ABSOLUTE GUESS) is that it's the shimmies from a mineral deficiency due to your over usage of RO water.

 

[JRB__]

hi,

What do u mean by you are cleaning the plants? Just like the biological section of your filter, good bacteria grow on surfaces like plants too. Make sure when u clean the tank to keep all plants and ornaments constantly wet (with tank water only) and don't scrub them. If you do need to scrub something because it has gotten very dirty, then make sure you only do one piece at a time so as to allow the tank to adjust to the lower good bacteria levels.

Good luck

 

[fisherjean]

Gosh, I've never heard anything like that at all! If I'd lost too much good bacteria through cleaning the glass or decorations or say, overvaccuming the gravel (can one do that?), wouldn't I see a mini-cycle going on?

 

[JRB__]

yeah, sorry i didn't mean to say that that was the answer to your current issue. Was just pointing out about the plants. Sorry if i only added confusion to the thread lol

 

[riseabovethesun]

I'm not positive that it is your RO water. I use RO water only on my heavily planted tank and was told to use a buffer (such as Kent) and when I used one, things started dying. So I tried doing a tap/RO mix and things started dying.

So I wouldn't suspect that it is the RO water, at least not as the sole cause.

I think the high nitrates could have significantly impacted the fish, I've noticed changes in water parameters don't always cause instant strange behavior or instant death, but with a bit of time even after a water change the fish may already have been affected by the levels, so water changes only add stress, so it may just be the result of the nitrates.

Or it could be the RO water and the nitrates. I just don't think it would solely be due to that. But you could definitely work towards an RO/tap mix, it may help grealty.

 

[fisherjean]

So then would it have been better to do more, and smaller water changes to lower the nitrate level and just use some Seachem prime to detoxify in the meantime?

I don't think he'll make it through the night at this point. I hope that's all it is. I was looking to rehome the black phantoms, but at this point I'm a little worried about the whole tank.

 

[brian1973]

Doesnt RO cause pH to drop because it lacks the ability to buffer, it has been a while since I have researched any of that.

Here is my theory, Your fish were accustomed to higher nitrate levels. This increase happened slowly over a matter if time which allows the fish to adapt to it. How quickly did you lower the nitrates. Think of it the same way as acclimating a new fish, a drastic change in water quality or parameters regardless of going from good to bad or bad to good will effect the tank inhabitants. I have heavily stocked tanks and I occasionally have to go out of town and have to skip maintenance, my nitrate go up to the max on an api test when I have to skip for 2 or 3 weeks. To bring my tank levels down I do a partial vacuum and a 20% water change, then wait a day and do the same thing, I do this until my nitrates are back into a normal range (20-40), then finally I will do a series of large water changes (70% or more) until my nitrates fall closer to 10ppm.

I went back and reread you post and I misread it the first time so my theory may not be correct in your case, I thought your nitrate readings were higher than 40.

Back to the RO water, what is the reason you dont use tap water. I thought using straight RO water was not a good thing in freshwater tanks but honestly I haven't researched that stuff in years so I cant remember all of it so I could definately be wrong.

 

[riseabovethesun]

I completely agree with that about the nitrates and think that is why it'd be the most likely main cause of the OP's situation.

And I do believe RO water lowers the pH, either that or it neutralizes it, either way it certainly doesn't raise it.

 

[fisherjean]

Ok, this is making sense. There's nothing I can do then at this point, correct? Wait and hope?

I'd been using RO because the water here is crazy hard. It's rated at 18 grains. I don't have liquid GH and KH tests, maybe I should get some. But the 5-1 strips that I had before my master kit had upper limits of 180 and 240, respectively, and we were at or above that, and the pH was consistently in the 8s.

 

[brian1973]

I am going to go back and research RO water again since I am one of those people that loses it if I dont use it with information.

What was the reason behind using RO instead of tap?

Ok I did some quick research, RO removes 99.9% of contaminents and minerals so some sort of additive should be used, I have to do more research but I am almost positive that using straight 100% RO without an additive will crash pH.

Again I have to research but from what I can remember a change of .2 in pH in a quick amount of time can cause problems.

I may not be correct on any of this but I have the up coming weekend being stuck out of town in a hotel so I will be able to do alot of research on these things..lol.

 

[Newman]

I agree with brian's findings. I remember reading many things about the relations of GH, KH and pH, and since RO water removes just about everything from the water, it pretty much becomes just pure water. 0 KH and 0 GH. those readings are correct. You should never really use JUST RO water because it has no buffering capacity of any sort. add a tiny amount of an acid into your water (like driftwood tannins, or dissolve CO2, or add a bit of peat mos) and your pH will take a major dive. likewise if you add something like limestone or crushed coral/shells your pH will rise fast because the water isnt buffered by anything.

My guess, aside from the Nitrate issues is that your fish are victim of pH swings throughout the day and night cycle. Remember that when plants photosynthesize, they raise the pH of the water as long as there is light. when the display light turns off, the pH will plummet. Thus you will find different pH readings in mid day and late at night.

If you want to keep acid loving fish, and thats why youre going for RO water, either mix that RO with an appropriate amount of tap to get around 3-6 GH and KH readings (you will want a liquid test for them) or you can get a GH additive like Seachem Equilibrium and dose enough of that to your RO water to get around that general hardness and alkalinity.

I was going to say something about Discus, but the though just flew out of my head lmao!

 

[fisherjean]

The thing that confuses me about a pH swing is that I really don't know where it would have come from. I've been using the same water source this whole time, I have no driftwood, peat, live plants, crushed coral or shells, limestone, none of that. Other ideas?

Brian, that's kind of you. Thank you. I posted at the bottom of the first page, I'd started using RO because our water here is really hard. I was maxing out the test strips I had for GH and KH (still don't have liquid ones) and the pH was over 8. *shrug*

 

[Newman]

CO2 makes water acidic. so maybe your fish are exhaling up an acid storm? lol idk what else it would be since you said the plants arent in yet.
algae in the tank? that can be the photosynthetic component of the issue.
Try liquid tests for GH and KH
See if you can mix a sample of water between RO and tap to get a pH of about 7 as standing water (water thats been stading in a bucket for at least one day)
7 should be comfortably low enough for your fish. once you accomplish that note the amount of each water type used and replicate it in your water changes from then on. the pH change should be slow as long as your water changes arent like 50% lol.

 

[Thyra]

I have well water and the color doesn't match anything on either of the color charts for low or high pH with the API master test kit. Its the color of rose wine. The lab at API said they didn't want to discuss color - but there is no red/maroon on their color chart even close. I am assuming it is well over 8. On the other hand, my betta has been fine for almost 2 years (in a bowl until I learned better) and the other fish are doing fine at 5 month with my tap water and no additives of any kind.

 

[Newman]

yes a reddish color I would assume is around 8+
I have bred my bettas in water of slightly more than 8 pH, they did fine even though it is recommended to keep them as close to their natural habitat water as possible. for some people like me its not very possible, so i work with what I have.(I have mad high GH, levels of up to 700ppm!)

 

[OrangeCones]

The thing that confuses me about a pH swing is that I really don't know where it would have come from. I've been using the same water source this whole time, I have no driftwood, peat, live plants, crushed coral or shells, limestone, none of that. Other ideas?

Anything living in the water (fish, shrimp, plants, etc) will absorb some of the minerals in the water. If you've only been using RO water, you likely have a mineral deficiency.

I use a lot of RO water in my tanks (we bought a unit just for the fish), because I like to breed acid-loving fish and my tap water in my city is very hard (as reported below on the water department's website):

Chlorine mg/L 1.20
Nitrate mg/L 4.52
Hardness mg/L (gr/gal) 128 (7.49)
pH 9.53
Fluoride mg/L 0.99

I have to test my tap water when doing water changes, and mix RO water with tap water to get the values I need for different tanks. Had I known the water was like this when I moved here, I would raise cichilds....

 

[fisherjean]

If I ever get this tank squared away I'd like to do a cichlid tank next. I asked at the LFS what water they're using in their cichlid tanks - tap. Of course.


I got liquid GH and KH tests.
KH 0
GH 2, nearly 24h after adding some R/O Right.

Also purchased some seachem buffers.

They said r/o water, unaerated, has a pH of like 6. So there you go. I'm sure all of this was due to be fixed, but my guess is the pH swing is what's causing visible problems at the moment.

I need a larger bucket to mix water with. Currently using an 8 quart stock pot, putzy to say the least. Also need a bubbler for the water bucket.

Anyway, I think (I hope) I understand the problem at this point, so now to slowly tinker the tank back to good levels, right?

Thank you so much for all your help everyone!!!

 

[Newman]

are you sure you want to go with the buffer route? cant you just mix tap with RO to get where you want? it cheaper lol. I would do a powerhead for the water mixing bucket, and the bucket should be around 5 gals+

 

[fisherjean]

No, I'm not sure honestly. I just got the smallest sizes of the buffers.

I'm trying to do my tap KH and GH right now, and I'm at 20 drops with no color change on either. I mean, KH is cranberry red at this point. No trace of green. GH is neon orange. How far do I bother going?

Powerhead because it will work faster right?

ETA: Ok, I kept going. KH suddenly turned purple at 23. GH also turned green at 23. So what's that in PPM?