Starting fresh, need advice for planted tank.

[newman187]

Hello, This is my first post, i guess you could say i'm a noob to this forum.

I am a recent salt water victim, I tried as I might and kept healthy fish, and clean water, but lost to an ever lasting cyano bacteria battle so I gave up, its a long and sad story, but i'm not here to bore you with my failure in salt water and am requesting your advice for a fresh water tank that will be planted.

Before any one freaks on me I spent about 2 hours + on the main tank, and at least an hour cleaning out the sump including scraping, scrubbing, and using hydrogenperoxide to disinfect the tank so there should be no salt present nor should there be any bacteria or algea left in the tank.

My tank as it is now:
55 Gallon show tank, 48" long, 24" high, 18" deep (i beleive) with overflow and sump.
1 rio 1700 return pump
220 w power compact (10k, and 6500k blue)
protien skimmer
PH controller (the green one dont know the brand name, I forgot)

I have future plans for the following:
CO2 regulator with automatic shutoff (presurized tank)
Emperor 400 wet/dry filter

I have already purchased the substrate I will not be using an undergravel filter as I want to grow a plant tank as described above. I'm using neutrient rich substrate (30 lbs) mixed with bacteria rich substrate (20 lbs), and some epoxy coated rocks (20 lbs), I forgot the names, I will repost when I get home tonight.

I have money to spend, and have already spent about 80 bucks on the substrate, and will be purchasing the co2 injector and wet/dry filter soon, and have plans to use the sump to grow the java moss, the sump will have a grow light in the refuge area, and need advice weather I need bio balls or not, or if I should use my skimmer, maybe you can tell me that.

I plan on keeping discus in my tank but will be a few months down the road as I am moving to a bigger house in that time, but want to get the tank up and running as soon as possible, because I and my son miss having fish in the 50 gallon tank.

I am asking you (the guru's) what I need to keep in mind, I have not set up the tank yet, I will be using RO water to fill the tank, and be using RO water to do water changes, but here are my questions:

1: Do I use the skimmer or no?
2: Is 220w of PC light to much for a plant tank? I will probably replace the blue ones with pink.
3: I have a 10g fresh planted tank, how long till I can move the plants and fish over to the big tank?
4: What should the ideal water paramiters be?
5: What type of plants should I do?
6: What do i need to add to the water/tank/substrate to keep it healthy?
7: what type of fish should i keep, and how many for the tank size?
8: What tests should I performe on the tank?
9: Do I need to use bio balls?
10: is the wet/dry filter necessary?
11: the co2 injector with pressurized co2 a good idea, if so what should I be paying for it?
12: what else do i need to know?

I have been reading the forums, but there are some things that I did not see that I have asked, so your kind responses are very much appreciated!

Thank you very much!

 

[chrysler_12]

im sorry about your salt water tank... here are some answers or probably suggestions...

1. not sure about this coz i've never used one...
2. 220w is perfectly fine... with that you can grow plants that require high ligthing... but be sure to use 6700K because those are the ones for plants... not the actinic or colored bulbs...
3. you can move them anytime you want as long as your big tank is well established already...
4. ideal parameters, it depends on what kind of fish you're goin to put... but w/ regards to pH levels, a lot of people say that you shouldn't mess up with it by adding buffer, regulator,etc. coz it will most likely cause pH swings. most fishes adapt to pH by themselves...
5. with your 220w lighting you could put any plants that you want including those that require high lighting... if u want a carpeted plant effect try glosso... also check this out http://www.plantgeek.net there's a lot of plants you can check on that site..
6. water additives... isnt really necessary... but if you want you can add bio-support like stress-zyme weekly, then you can add ferts as well for the plants like seachem flourish...
7. if you want a planted tank, i think you should stay away from cichlids cause they tend to nip them off, however i think there are some that are compatible.. the golden rule in fish stocking is 1 inch per gallon, considering the max. adult size of the fish... however most people including me dont follow this rule coz it sucks!!! hehe... it really depends on your regular maintenance and water conditions... if you want neon tetras only, i've heard that you can stock around 150 of them in a 55g tank!!!
8. tests, basically you're goin to undergo tank cycling, you need to test the ammonia and nitrite... then later on check the nitrates (optional), pH, GH, and KH if you're goin to add carbon dioxide injector...
9. im not sure about bio balls...
10. i think you can use canister filters in a 55 g tank, besides they're cheaper...
11. a pressurized co2 for a planted tank is really a good idea but it's very expensive, i think it will cost you around $300 plus the replacement of the tank each time... but if you have the money go for it... another suggestion would be the DIY CO2 Injector, which is way lot cheaper... it's basically yeast and sugar only...http://www.freewebs.com/chrysler_12/makingadiyco2.htm
12. that's basically it... i hope that helps...

 

[NoDeltaH2O]

I posted answers to all your questions except for 9 and 10 but IE froze up on me after i hit "post quick reply" but before it went through. I shall defer to another now. Maybe my advice was bad.........................

CTRL ALT DEL CTRL ALT DEL CTRL ALT DEL CTRL ALT DEL CTRL ALT DEL CTRL ALT DEL CTRL ALT DEL CTRL ALT DEL CTRL ALT DEL CTRL ALT DEL CTRL ALT DEL CTRL ALT DEL CTRL ALT DEL

 

[NoDeltaH2O]

protein skimmer is useless in a FW tank due to the different water chemistry in FW tanks. There is a good thread on protein skimmers in FW tanks;
http://myfishtank.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8069&highlight=protein+skimmer+fresh

 

[Avalon]

Here are my answers:

1: Do I use the skimmer or no?

No.

2: Is 220w of PC light to much for a plant tank? I will probably replace the blue ones with pink.

The 10K's are fine, but replace the actinic (blues) with 6700K

3: I have a 10g fresh planted tank, how long till I can move the plants and fish over to the big tank?

Move the plants immediately. You should monitor your param's for a cycle before you add fish. In some cases, you could add fish in about a week, but I'm not sure if you have enough plants to negate a cycle.

4: What should the ideal water paramiters be?

Ammonia: 0, Nitrite: 0, Nitrate: 5-10ppm, Phosphate: .5-1.0ppm; pH: tap water or a pH in relation to your KH when you begin CO2 injection (for proper amount of CO2)

5: What type of plants should I do?

Fast growing stem plants like wisteria, green hygro, anacharis, etc. PLANT HEAVY--FILL THE TANK with plants. Avoid rooted plants for now like swords, crypts, & anubias.

6: What do i need to add to the water/tank/substrate to keep it healthy?

Just your typical water dechlor when doing water changes for now. A fertilization regimine will come later.

7: what type of fish should i keep, and how many for the tank size?

Whatever you want, but avoid large Central American cichlids and African cichlids. South American cichlids like apistogrammas, angelfish, and discus are fine. Stock moderately, but don't overstock. You might consider some bottom dwellers, mid-level swimmers, and top-level swimmers for a nice mix. Sticking with 2-5 different species in larger numbers will provide you with a more cohesive appearance.

8: What tests should I performe on the tank?

See #4

9: Do I need to use bio balls?

Not really, see next question.

10: is the wet/dry filter necessary?

You may certainly use it if you'd like (you can & probably should use bioballs with it), but many prefer cannister filters. The Eheim 2026 would be ideal. You don't need a HOB filter. Scrap it.

11: the co2 injector with pressurized co2 a good idea, if so what should I be paying for it?

Absolutely. It's critical for your success with a planted tank (depending on what you call success). With your light and this CO2 setup, you can grow dang near anything. Total cost should be around $180-250, including tank, CO2, regulator, needle valves, hoses, etc. Things like bubble counters and reactors may run the price up a bit more. I don't think they are necessary.

12: what else do i need to know?

Do NOT use RO water. You will fail. This is for breeding soft water fish like discus in a bare-bottom tank. Tap water is fine. In some RARE cases, you may need to mix RO with tap, but I highly doubt it.

Expect problems after about 2 weeks, particularly with algae. From the get-go, add otocinclus (10-12), algae eating shrimp (10-15), and Siamese Algae Eaters (4) after the tank is fish safe. These guys will help keep your algae at bay. Add them before the problems start.

Eventually you will need to start fertilizing. Before you have to, do your homework, as this is what your entire tank will revolve around. Read up on macro and micronutrients, dosing regimines, plant nutrient deficiencies, the causes of algae (i.e., nutrient imbalance), and get a digital camera if you don't already have one so people can help you better. It doesn't have to be expensive. A cheapy will do, or borrow one. There are lots of threads about all of these subjects here on MFT.net!

Thank you very much!

Word.

 

[chrysler_12]

Here are my answers:
5: What type of plants should I do?

Fast growing stem plants like wisteria, green hygro, anacharis, etc. PLANT HEAVY--FILL THE TANK with plants. Avoid rooted plants for now like swords, crypts, & anubias.

what's wrong witht rooted plants? why r u suggesting to add stem plants first?

 

[newman187]

Wow, what an overwhelming response here already, I plan on now selling the skimmer and using the funds to support the co2.

I have a question however, why is it not ok to use ro water? You kninda explained it a bit, but I thought the purest water is the best. I would hate to have problems with all the minerals etc in the tap water (yes we have hard water). In my experiance with salt water it is essential to use ro water so i'm a bit confused on this part.

Whats the benefit of using a canister filter verses the hob wet/dry one?

I'm also curious about the plants, i will have about 80lbs of substrate or i figure about 3" give or take, wont rooted plants be ok for that deep o fa substrate?

Thanx for the responses, keep them coming! *BOUNCINGS *BOUNCINGS

 

[Avalon]

what's wrong witht rooted plants? why r u suggesting to add stem plants first?

Good question. Rooted plants can become succeptible to algae in the beginning, particlularly anubias and some crypts. This is not always the case, but for a beginner, it may be best until they gain a good grasp on nutrient control & dosing. Swords usually do well, but with a 55g show, I don't recommend them. This show tank is far too narrow for swords with 220w of light and CO2 injection. They will overcrowd every plant in the tank. newman overstated his tank depth. The size he quoted was about a 90g tank. The 55g show is about 12" deep (maybe a little more). I think it's actually 45g or so...I have no idea why they call the 55g show a 55g tank. I have a couple of friends who have them.

I have a question however, why is it not ok to use ro water? You kninda explained it a bit, but I thought the purest water is the best. I would hate to have problems with all the minerals etc in the tap water (yes we have hard water). In my experiance with salt water it is essential to use ro water so i'm a bit confused on this part.

Whats the benefit of using a canister filter verses the hob wet/dry one?

I'm also curious about the plants, i will have about 80lbs of substrate or i figure about 3" give or take, wont rooted plants be ok for that deep o fa substrate?

RO water is devoid of any buffering capacity. In other words, you will have 0 KH and 0 GH. This type of water will wreak havoc on your pH--it will crash. It is recommended that you have at least 3 degrees KH & GH in order to sustain a constant pH and to provide your plants with an adequate amount of calcium and magnesium, along with other vital nutrients. Unlike saltwater tanks where live rock and certain substrates leech water hardening minerals, freshwater tanks do not, and should not ideally.

Furthermore, nitrates and phosphates are not issues in planted tanks, as they are both plant food. Correct me if I'm wrong, but nitrates and phosphates cause algae in saltwater tanks, so it's best not to have N or P. This is because nothing absorbs or rids saltwater tanks of these nutrients. Planted tanks are the opposite; we dose N & P for the plants! Crazy, huh? Plants are natural water purifiers, and that's one reason why I only keep planted tanks. Don't worry about hard water. I have hard water, and used to have liquid rock before the water co. switched water supplies. The plants use water hardening minerals, and anything you might have heard about hard water affecting plant growth is a myth. However, there are some rarer species of plants that prefer softer water, but it's unlikely you will grow them, and you can still grow them in hard water anyway...so pffft!

I think that we all could get into a long discussion over which type of filtration is better. I know many people who use both types, wet/dry & cannister. I personally think either is fine. Ultimately, wet/dry is far superior in terms of biological filtration and oxygen supply, but many don't use it because it can be rather expensive (I was pricing them today actually). Cannisters on the other hand make great reactors of CO2, as CO2 must be in contact as long as possible with the water in order for it to absorb into the water. CO2 does not readily dissolve in water like oxygen does. There is a rumor that says CO2 gasses off in a sump type filter, but given the capacity of a pressurized CO2 system, particularly when operated with a pH controller, the end result is you may use a little more CO2. If you would like to use the wet/dry, then by all means, use it.

Rooted plants are fine with that substrate and that depth is great. My only objection about rooted plants was the algae issue, and you will go through it to some degree. When this is over, plant then all you want. But go ahead and plant rooted foreground plants like Sagitaria subulata, E. tenellus, hairgrass, glosso, etc.

 

[newman187]

Well the wife will not let me do the co2 injection thing so i'll have to do it with a DIY self one but have another question about that.

Will that particular setup be enough for a 50 gallon tank with a 20 gallon sump? Will I need to have 2 of them running at the same time?

Seems to me that people are using that setup on a 30 gallon max tank unless i'm wrong. Also how do you regulate it over night? I see a valve on the tubing but correct me if i'm wrong and if you have ever made beer in your house, you close that bottle off and you may here a loud bang downstairs because the bottle blew up.

Also I will be plumbing it to go directly into my return pump so it goes through the impeller to mix in the co2, but is there a better way to do that like hooking this up to a reactor of some type?

I have alot to think about here, i'm probably going to do a canister filter, but again the wife is putting a limmit on what I can spend after she found my post on here (I left it open and she read it) and she wont let me spend a buck fifty on a canister filter, what do you suggest?

 

[dss2004]

Everyone that has Eheim cannisters love them.

Why won't your wife let you set up pressurized co2? Because of the cost? Man if you can afford it you WILL need it.

I wouldn't turn on all of your lights unless you have pressurized co2 ready to go. Anything over 2.5 wpg really needs pressurized co2 and you are right at or above 4 wpg. Without co2 you could have a serious algae outbreak. I would recommed only using half the lights until you can get co2 up and running.

With 4 wpg in a 55 gallon tank you would probably need 4 2l diy bottles to give the necessary amount of co2 which is around 25-30 but some keep it higher. I actually run mine at 36-38 ppm.

I didn't want to come of harsh but I promise with all that light and too little co2 you will be in trouble. The thing about high tech tanks is really can't go halfway.

Good luck!!

 

[newman187]

The ph monitor I have will not operate a the solenoid, and will not be able to monitor it manually because I work during the day and all that so I will sell the ph monitor and my skimmer on ebay and use that money to buy the pressurized co2, and I'll go with the canister filter as well.

I know that i'll probably go through co2 quickly because I have the sump, but thats ok, but i'm wondering if the overflow can be fed into the canister filter and that way i wont need to use a pump, or can I use the return pump to run the filter and then return the water to the main tank and use the canister filter as the reactor?

I'm reading chucks planted aquarium pages and he's saying put a bunch of stemmed plants in the tank at first to take care of the cycle in a timely manor, how many plants will I need to put in there, and i'll have the co2 injection in a week (paid 162.00 on ebay came with ph regulator, and valve with solenoid and bubble counter), but what size tank for the co2 should i get? I'll probably have to buy it from the medical gas place unless i can find a freeby lying around some where.

Any way thanx for your help.

 

[newman187]

Well I purchased a 5# co2 tank from the local Praxair guys ($79.00), and a ph controller with a regulator that has a bubble counter and an electronic solenoid that is actuated by the controller ($171.00) off ebay including shipping, so that cost me 250 bucks so not to bad I guess, Just hope the wife doesn't find out how much it really costed me. As for the filter, not sure what i'll do with that, any suggestions? Will I need the filter right away if i'm not going to add any fish for a few weeks?

 

[Avalon]

You will need some way of diffusing the CO2 into your tank. Most of us use our filters to do so, and that's a perk of using a cannister (there's more dwell time to dissolve the CO2, and usually no noise). I would think that you would use either a cannister or the sump, but if you use a sump, you will need a reactor to dissolve the CO2 into your tank, as well as another small pump to run the reactor. I think I see what your saying by running a cannister & a sump, but this is kind of pointless. I don't think you would really need the sump, as a large cannister will do more than fine for that size tank, and there's also less to clean. You might consider trading in the sump for a nice cannister. Besides, less equipment = happier spouse.

When initially stocking with plants, put in as many as you can! Stuff it full. You can get rid of them later by trading to LFS, selling them on aquabid, giving them away here, etc. When using them to cycle & overcome initial algae problems, the biggest problem is that people don't use enough!

 

[newman187]

Yea, since the tank is drilled i have no choice really, and I have already filled the tank and am running it as we speak with no lights, as for what i'll do with the sump i'm not sure, i'm thinking maybe add the rocks from my 10 gallon tank in there, and put java moss down there and keep a grow light on it during the day in hopes that it acts like a refugium in a salt water tank.

I just filled it up last night, and I imagine that it will be a few days till I add some plants. The wife and I are going to go looking for some plants to put in there tonight but doubt i'm going to get any till the regulator and controller get to my house.

As for the canister filter i'll probably get one, but again the wife is choking me on the money issue, I spent 250 on the co2 part that she already doesn't know about, but we'll keep that from her as long as possible. I'm also going to trade out the 6500k blue lights for 6700 pink ones and keep the 10k ones as is.

I'll also look for a canister filter and will possibly pick one up, if I use a hob instead of the canister I can always use a difuser and I have plenty of maxijets lying around from the salt tank.

I'll keep you all informed and let you know how it turns out.

 

[Lotus]

We run a 20lb CO2 cylinder on our 50g tank that has an airstone running (I know you're not supposed to, but it's a tall tank and we've had problems). Anyway, it's been running almost a year without a refill. The refills should only cost about $20 or less anyway, so the running costs shouldn't be too high.

It definitely makes a difference with how good your diffuser is. We use a DIY powerhead reactor, and found that running it one way was much more efficient than in reverse. It's something you may have to tinker with a little.

 

[newman187]

What i'll probably end up doing is getting the canister filter and piping the co2 into the intake some how of the filter and have the canister filter difuse the co2 for me, i'm thinking thats going to be the easiest way to do it.