starting from scratch! well kind of...

[wesmuns]

right,

I'm going to buy a tropical tank, again... I had one when i was younger about 14 and quite frankly did not have the time or patience to look after it properly. It's tragic in a way as i lost some lovely fish. Anyway, last time i had a small tank i 'think' it was 12" deep by about 18" long??? anyway to cut this long and frankly quite boaring story short... i lost all the fish, bar my siamese fighter in the end due to a lack of care.

This time round i want to do things right from the start! I'm older, wiser and far more patient! My small tank, sold to me last time as the 'ideal starter tank' proved very difficult to look after.. i think mainly due to its size! it got dirty quick... there was little water volume to dilute the waste products. making the tank quite high maintenence. What i would like to know from you guys out there is:

What size tank (litres) should i be starting with?

What type and brand filter should i go for? i'd rather spend good money on that now to cut down extra maintenence in the future.

should i go for real plants or plastic? how difficult are real plants to look after? are they a lot of maintenence?

What hardy fish work well together in a community tank?

BASICALLY I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THE BEST LOOKING,
LOW MAINTENENCE, COMMUNITY I CAN PUT TOGETHER.

Thanx

 

[Fishckabibble]

i think you should read some of the stickies, my first big tank was a 30 gallon and it was fairly easy to maintain. and for filters go wqith acua clear, they are cheap and work great.

 

[TheFighterFish]

I don't know much, but the suggested size for community tanks are at the very least a 20 gallon. A very effective filter would be the those that set up under the gravel. But any other would be fine. Make sure you either read the stickies or research.

(I learned most by borrowing books from the library. There are some really great books out there.)

Make sure you have all the equipment and accessories such as lighting and heaters.

I've read that keeping good care of plants are just as crucial as the fish itself. I wouldn't know because I have plastic plants.

Lastly, a good beginner hardy community fish would be the livebearers (ie platties, guppies, and mollies). You could even buy a school and let them swim together. Guppies are a bit expensive for the size fish that you get, but they are extremely colorful.

Platties are really cheap.

Last piece of advice is to make water changes frequently and don't over feed the little suckers.

Hopefully, some of the moderators may be able to answer more of your questions.

Good Luck.

 

[Big Vine]

A very effective filter would be the those that set up under the gravel.

Hmmm...you're referring to an under-gravel filter, right? If so, then I can't agree with this statement---All too often I've either heard of fellow hobbyists who have had water quality problems due to crud building up under the filter at the bottom of the tank (whether or not this was caused by their poor tank maintenance schedules, etc., is another story). I've had the same problems in the past, which is why I will never go back to a UGF.

However, I'm sure there are people out there who have had success with these UGFs...I'm just not one of them.
I will agree with pretty much everything else you said though.

wesmuns,

Bloodfin tetras are also a hardy fish that you might want to consider for your first fish in the tank. I would suggest getting a 29 gallon tank (or slightly larger) to begin with...minimum.

Big Vine

 

[Shaunna]

I say go for around 29 or 30 gallons. Get the aqua clear filter mentioned above. You can get some very low light low maintenance plants that will improve your water quality, your fishes lives and make your tank look beautiful all without having to do anything to them. Real plants really do make a huge difference. For your fish I would go with some neon or Cardinal Tetras, maybe a couple of upside down catfish and a few cories. You could get some Gouramis as well. There are also some great little Dwarf Cichlids that are just beautiful! You should check out the plant and freshwater fish profiles at the top of the page.

 

[Etheostoma]

I use UGF for two of my 5 tanks. One being my turtle's 55 gal and the other being the 29 gal Koi tank (neat story, I'll share sometime). In any event, I periodically vacuum the crud out from under the filter by using a larger piece of acrylic tubing (available at most hardware stores) and getting it down underneath through the riser-tube. I've had zero problems with UGF, however, those tanks are decidedly under-loaded in terms of total biomass-to-tank size ratio. I've done some modifications on the turtle's system to manage the waste load more effectively, making it more like a trickling rock filter than absolute UGF. Anyway, it works great!

Two of my tanks are those waterfall thingies with the drop tube and impeller (c.f. finding nemo). Those I don't like so well since they seem to increase water loss and the impellers get gunked-up too quickly for my liking. They're effective, and very good at keeping the water clean, but they've got more frequent maintenance needs.

One tank I use a dense foam filter with a riser tube. I can't recall to what it is referred to as, but it's essentially like a riser tube implanted in a sponge. It works very well, maintenance is a snap (remove, squeeze, rinse, return). Easy to hide and very effective.

For stocking ideas, I go a lot for color. I like variatus (yellow with red tails), neon (blue streaks), blood-fin (silver w/ red accents) Green (yep, green) and black (black'n gold) tetras, rummy noses (just gosh-darn cute!) and rainbows (lavender-opal). I usually keep no less than four smaller fish of any one type in any one tank, for larger fish (rainbows) I'll settle on a pair. I always include one corey-cat and chinese algae eater as janitors.

So, taking the above into account and crunching the numbers, a 29 gallon tank would cover it. Might need to forego two types of small fish to keep your tank slightly under-loaded rather than slightly overloaded. Go with an impeller-style filter (waterfall/finding nemo thingy) that has a filter bag for carbon/zeolite you can maintain yourself rather than paying for pre-fab cartridges.

For decorations, omit live plants from your idea list until you've got some experience under your belt.

Oh, and don't just run out and buy a tank and stock as I've described. You'll have a smelly tank and dead fish all over the place. Get some butt-ugly feeder goldfish you won't get attached to for the 6 week to 3 month cycle needed to establish the tank's biological filter (you know it's done when the nutrients and ammonia are stable for a week or so). Once the tank is tempered, return the goldfish to the pet shop, take the water up to 85 degrees F and let it rest for a week. Then go buy your new buddies two to four at a time, introducing one new batch no more often than once/week. Don't forget to turn the temp back down!

I think what I've described is a bit more conservative than typical, but hey, you're new to the game (which isn't competetive) so there's no need to rush.

Happy aquascaping!

 

[cybersymes]

all info above is cool...
i would not go for ugf myself...cruddy imho...
30 gallons minimum is about right...
i would go for all the fish in my sigg...
[chek out different colors and styles at the lfs]...

i would really recommend real plants...easy ones like java fern...
and if you do go for real stuff...install it at the start of play...
all the info you need is on the 'net...
research...research...research...

on the fish choice...it's up to you...
do you want a few bigg fish...
or lotz of small ones in a school...
i like shoals or small fish...
they seem happier in a bigg group in a tank...
[which is not their natural environment lets face it]...

one small note...gouramis...too bigg for a 30 imho...
and if you get dwarf ones...you might have fights...i did...

any other q's...drop me a pm...
i'm a noob too really...my tank is only 3 months old...

[edit]...just saw a value there for biomass in inches 'give or take' ... funni funni funni

 

[Shaunna]

I have had Gouramis in my 29 since the beginning. The key is to get females!

 

[Etheostoma]

Only Gourami I ever had attacked and destroyed a plastic plant. Didn't inquire as to gender.

 

[FroggyFox]

My opinion/answers to your questions...

If I had started with a nice big tank like my 46g bowfront I probably wouldn't be where I am now with 14 tanks in the house. Maybe 2 or 3. My favorite tank is my 46 bowfront, lots of options for fish, very asthetically pleasing tank. If you dont want to have as big of an initial investment getting that large of a tank, I do really like my 29...and I would suggest anyone starting in the hobby get that size tank (or bigger)

In my opinion a canister filter is the way to go if you get a tank larger than 20. UGF's not the best technology anymore, HOB's work...but can be a pain sometimes, can be noisy etc...canister filters are a bit more expensive, but totally worth it in my opinion. Eheim is the best canister filter brand...but also pretty expensive. Fluval is another brand of canister filter. I have a Fluval 304 on my 46, seems to do the trick and haven't had any issues with it so far.

Real plants can be a fair amount of work...but not so much. They are something you can add later if you wish, or they can help with the initial cycling period of the tank if you learn about the plants and get the tank planted before you get fish. I started my 46 just with gravel and driftwood, then got some low light (low maintenance) plants and they're doing great. (I actually really need to prune them)

Depending on the size of tank there are SO many options to choose from when it comes to community fish. Best thing to do is go to some of your local stores and window shop. DONT BUY. Jot down some of their names, some of the ones that catch your eye...then come back online and check them out, talk to people who have those fish now and plan your tank out. The more research and planning you do up front, the better your tank is going to work out. You need to plan for the adult size of the fish and make sure that if its a schooling fish you have a school of them, that you have other fish that get along with that fish etc. Sometimes ONE fish will help you make the decision between really wanting a 29G tank and needing a 55. Either that, or decide your size of tank, decide what type of community you want (active, lazy, aggressive, colorful, planted etc)...and then ask for some more suggestions. For some cool starter community fish check out these ones they're some of my favorites: Harlequin Rasboras, White Skirt Tetras, Zebra Danios, Hatchet fish (silver or marbled), Corydoras...

Welcome to MFT! You came to the right place to ask questions like this...as you can see we all have pretty varying opinions...but you might get some good ideas. In the end dont forget to take everyone's suggestions with a grain of salt.

 

[Etheostoma]

In the end dont forget to take everyone's suggestions with a grain of salt.

--FroggyFox

Absolutely. Decorative/hobby aquaculture is a practice. If it were perfected, there'd be no need for a forum. Every enthusiast I know does something a bit differently from any other. However, we all agree that you need a tank, filter, and quality water.

Oh! And a place to put them!

 

[wesmuns]

Thanks Guys!

Thanks for all the great information - there really is no substitute for experience, (which i have none off) so thanks for sharing yours!

Right so what i think i have decided on from reading everyones comments are:

a 30litre tank, an external cannister type filter (Eheim Classics look good), i was thinking i should go for a small air pump and airstone, to improve airation and i actually quite like to look of a few bubbles, then obviosly a heater and lighting. I think i'm going to be a bit of a scardey cat and go for plastic plants to start with - simply untill i get things running well. maybe upgrade to the real thing later. Once i have cycled my tank, which i would like to try fishless (or is this too difficult?). once i get zero rated ammonia and nitrate, and nitrite levels are low and safe i think i'll go for a few Zebra Danios. I went to my local dealer and they look like fun, very active, hardy and ideal for a beginner. over time i want to then slowly introduce:

• 3 Platies
• 6 Neons
• Siamese Fighter (male and only one!)
• 4 cherry Barbs
• 3 coreys (the bronze variety?) i understand this variety like to move around in small shoals

Thats it - is the about the correct stocking level? i'd rather be a little under than over the limit as i know more fish = more waste = more maintenence

Wes

 

[homebunnyj]

"once i get zero rated ammonia and nitrate, and nitrite levels are low and safe " ... It should be zero ammonia and nitrIte, nitrAte levels low and safe... otherwice... by George, I think you've got it! (thumbs up)

 

[wesmuns]

Slip Up!

once i get zero rated ammonia and nitrate, and nitrite levels are low and safe

I'll try again! Zero rated ammonia and Nitrite and safe levels of Nitrate!

yehaaa!

Not untill i posted this did i see the slip up! whoops! thanks for pointing it out though...

 

[Etheostoma]

30 litre = 7.9 (8) gallons (approx one cubic foot). Stocking rate looks a bit high to me, but I'm very conservative since I like my tanks as maintenance-free as possible.

I'd go with one corey and a chinese/siamese algae eater (whichever is the smaller) instead of 3 coreys. 4 neons, 2 barbs (or blood-fin tetras), instead of 6 & 4 and I'd do leopard danios (or transgenic Glo-Fish) rather than platies (platies look to get too large). Despite my assessment of the stocking rate, your filter choice should be more than capable of handling the load. Wise decision on the plants.

Watch your rate of flow, the amount of current the filter produces; fighting fish have a hard time and don't last so long in water that moves too much. Wears them out and they die sooner than they otherwise would.

I would, myself, cycle the tank with fish. I prefer having canaries in my coal mine, as it were, rather than trusting all to chemistry. I always suggest using feeders as cycling fish then giving them back to the LFS when ready for the real deal. Fish come with a ready dose of beneficial bacteria to help seed the bio-filter's development.

Disregarding my comments (which are predominantly based on personal preference), I'd say you're go-fly.

 

[wesmuns]

typing error! sorry

I had put in 30 litre but meant gallon! this was a typing error!

Wes

 

[Etheostoma]

Well, in that case, you're stocking rate appears to be such that you've got room to spare! *thumbsups

I'd still mix it up between coreys and algae eaters. Coreys don't do windows.

I still don't like platies. Had a bad experience with mollies somewhere back when. Platies look like calico mollies and thus, I've got trepidations about them.

In any event, you're informed and you know where to come when a problem presents itself!

Looking forward to hearing how things shape-up for you! Happy aquascaping!

:E

 

[wesmuns]

thanks again..

Thanks,

it's good to have an active member online... instant information! yeah i'm really looking forward to getting this off the ground and fingers crossed all goes to plan!... i'm sure there will be a learning curve in there too!

I'll look into the algae eaters, so they actually feed on algae and reduce it, now i like the sound of that!

i'll keep you all posted,

Wes

*GOLDFISH*

 

[Etheostoma]

Well, I'm on holiday, the ground outside is frozen, I no longer play an MMO-RPG, and the cats are sleeping. I just finished a major renovation on my tanks* and have to struggle to keep my hands off them for a bit. The MFT forum is an excellent surrogate hobby in the interim!


*http://www.myfishtank.net/forum/showthread.php?t=34278

 

[FroggyFox]

Corycats need to school...so if you're planning on getting one, please plan on getting at least three. That being said, I agree that adding one type of algae eater to the tank would be a good addition...maybe a bristlenose pleco?

Zebra danios are classic..definitely one of my favorite fish. You want to get a group of at least 6 or so of them otherwise their constant activity and 'playing' may annoy any of the other slow moving, long finned fish in the tank. (betta, platies etc)

One last comment on the fish...I actually am a little bored with livebearers myself. Tho three (2F, 1M) wont be a big deal...you could get platies or guppies or mollies or swordtails...sometimes the babies will overrun your tank. They're kind of like the rabbits of the fish world. If you have a fish like danios in the tank, most of the fry will be eaten anyway so thats probably ok...but just a word to the wise.

The only issue with the "canary in the mine" fish-in type cycling is that you will most certainly have deaths. With only a couple bucks in ammonia and a few weeks of patience, you can do the same thing and not worry about killing any fish. The chemistry is the same...watch the levels...let them peak, let them come back down, do a big water change and wa-la. It takes a LOT of patience in the beginning though...if you just CANT sit and watch an empty tank for a month...then do fishless cycling because it'd be worse to decide you dont want to do a fishless cycle and then add fish halfway through. Personally I like fishless cycling, but admittedly right now I can instantly cycle a tank using media from my other tanks, so its usually less than a 2 week wait for me. The first time around I timed at almost exactly a month. If you have any friends with tanks, or a cool local store they may be able to give you some filter squeezings or a handful of gravel from one of their tanks (if they use UGF's) to seed your tank with bacteria.

Sounds like you've done some research and thats great The good news is that you have awhile while you cycle to get your final stocking list together. Even if you fishless cycle you'll need to get a few (say 6 or 8 danios) fish into the tank for the cycle, you definitely dont want to do any more stocking until the tank is finished cycling...so with a fish-in cycle that can take months, but at least something is in the tank. With the fishless cycle you can do as little as a couple of weeks to say 6 weeks...is really up to you of course.