The Hybrid Discussion...Blood Parrots

[colesea]

Okay I really just want to know...

What is everyone's hang up with hybridization?

Seriously, if you were so morally and ethically against hybrids, then why do you still purchase agricultural products?

Hybridization has been a mechanism of breeding for thousands and thousands of years. It is used to make the meat of your hamburger grow faster and eat less, to give you an extra pork chop, and to make plants high yeilding and drought resistant in starving third-world countries.

It would only be a matter of time before hybridization came to the aquatic world. I know it is being experimented with in the food-fish culturing industry.  I know trout species are constantly being interbred to get a better disease resitant trout.

So Blood Parrots were just, an eventuallity. I mean, look what we did to the wolf. Anybody who thinks a toy poodle is cute has got to be off their rocker   Blood Parrots are simply the toy poodle of the cichlid world.  You don't have to like them because you think they're ugly, but don't knock them for being a hybrid. After all, Lenny Kravits is a great hybrid in my book!

Not that I agree with the dying process. A bright blue Blood Parrot is definately ugly. But the natural golden orange is beautiful. I had six juvies in my tanks at work. They all started off a yellow-green with black stripes, and then mottled up, then turned the most brilliant reds I had ever seen. It was a joy to work with them. I think they're adorable fish with great personallity.

And because of hybrid vigor, the process of recieving the best from both parents, blood parrots are very undemanding in their water chemistries, thriving just fine in a neutral environment without any loss of color or behavior. The water chemistry demands of other cichlids frequently turn off a potential aquarist. And you get a relatively "docile" laid-back cichlid that had a beautiful bright red color. The best of both the sevrum and the midas are all wrapped into one package. I've had Blood Parrots live with tinfoil barbs, bala sharks,  all variety of tetras, tiger barbs, pacu, pleco, gouramis, Blue Acara, and have never had tankmate issues with them at all.

Now I just wonder what all the hype about hybridization is about.
~~Colesea

 

[Matt Nace]

Where is the original discussion?
point it to me.

I remember talking about fish that were died like painted glass fish, some tiger barbs,albino cories ,black skirt tetras..there so many. But when I saw the purple and pink irredescent sharks..that was too far on the dye. They looked rediculous.

I really don't mind the parrots but the dyed ones again look rediculous.
Maybe I am not talking about the same thread...I am sorry then for that.

 

[colesea]

It seems like no matter who you talk to, they don't like the idea of a hybrid fish. Nobody ever states why they don't like the hybrid idea, except that they are against it. Then they go on to say they really don't like the fact the fish are dyed, as if hybridization and the dying process are all the same thing. I understand people don't like the fact the fish is dyed, but I want to know why they don't like the hybridization.
~~Colesea

 

[ryanp15]

I have had one of these and they are great fish. The only problem I have with the hybridization of aquarium fish is that somtimes hybridizing them messes with their body chemistry. As with the blood parrot this fish has an extremely disformed swim bladder and causes it to swim loopsided sometimes. This happened to mine and it died. But I don't see anything wrong with selected hybridization. Hybrid cows are a different story though, they're not made to live, just die and be eaten. That's about the only difference and I see what you mean. It's not fair for people just to base their opinon on what they think is "morally wrong" instead of looking at the facts, thank you for the educated basis for this discussion and that's why I am happy to have this one with you.

But I must say I am very much against the dying of fish, any fish. It's just wrong. They look horrible and usually don't live long, but that's understandable would you live very long if someone dyed you blue, purple, yellow, pink, or green? And they charge more for these fish. Oh well. If I ever open a fish store I won't carry painted fish. Just my opinion. ;D

 

[Lynn]

My #1 problem with Parrots is this: they are so deformed they can't close their mouth. I don't mind that they are hybrids. I also do not support dyeing fish. But I saw a fully grown blood parrot and that was the most beautiful fish I had ever seen. But I wouldn't buy it because I don't support fish that are bred deformed. That that extent. I also don't buy goldfish without their top fins or eyes with sacs under them or telescope eyed. But I don't think that fantails and orandas are "that" bad. Or veiltailed fish isn't "that" bad, but when its so deformed it can't close its mouth that is just a little much for my book.

 

[kitten]

I totally agree with Lynn. Why would they market a deformed fish? "because it's nice to look at". Whatever you rekon! People fall sucker to colorful fish, even if it's a monster. Sure, it might be docile and friendly, but that's because it's a toy. Ugly as they are, you don't see a little poodle having to use it's mouth like a vacum just so it can eat. All those kinds of dogs are practically the same thing, deformed, but so friendly and "cute" (yuk) Some of them are totally vicious too...what a screw up. There's just too many problems involved with hybrid pets.  *crazysmiley*

 

[colesea]

The swim bladder disorder thing intriques me. Has this been proven anatomically, or could swim bladder deformatiy-like symptoms be related to other factors?

I know many round-bodied goldfish, such as fantails and ryukin, can get swim bladder problems from eating unsoaked food. This happened to my R/W ryukin Jake. After eating several pellets, he would loose the ability to regulate his buoyancy and bob to the top of the tank as if he was a little balloon.  After some research, I discovered it was the food.

My ryukin is a little piggy, and he would eat the pellets before they had the chance to absorb the water. Thus the dry pellets were absorbing water and expanding in his gut as a result, not expanding in the tank like they ought. That put pressure on his swim bladder, causing the lack of ability to maintain normal bouancy.  Now I soak all my fish food before I feed it to them, and thus far have not had any problems with buoyancy control on any of my fish. Did your Blood Parrot eat dry foods?

BTW, the above can also happen in dogs that are fed a strictly dry food diet. Gastric tortion(sp?), the twisting of the stomach or intestines, can cause internal damage that needs emergency surgery. While a dry food diet is great for the teeth and gums, you'd probably want to take up your dog's water for at least an hour after it eats (unless medically it is unwise), or semi-soak the dry food before feeding. Certain breeds are more prone to this than others, especially those that bolt large mouthfuls of food without much "chewing."

Certain strains of bettas are also known to be prone to swim bladder disorders (especially with the way bettas are mass produced). Some people report success by feeding their fish antibacterial flake. I wonder if this would work on a Blood Parrot as well. Most bettas with swim bladder disorders don't swim much, just rest on plants and other decorations, and sometimes can be downright lethargic, so I'm thinking this probably isn't so much a physical deformaty as more water quality and disease related.

The opened mouth doesn't seem to be an issue with Blood Parrots. Has anybody ever have harm come to a Blood Parrot as a result of the mouth always being open? They seem just as capable as any fish to spit out anything they don't want to swallow. Fish don't "chew" the way humans do, and Blood Parrots do the same spit-out/reingest tactic with food as I've seen many other types of fish do to tackle "chewing."

On the note of deformed faces, have you ever looked at a pug lately? Or a shitzu, or bulldog? Breeds of dogs like that are called brachyochephalic(sp?). Through selective breeding their noses have been pushed into their faces and their muzzles shortened. This causes a whole slew of heath problems, from dental because there are too many teeth to fit in such a short mouth, to respatory where the animal just can't breath properly (ever wonder why dogs like pugs and shitzus always weeze and snort?), and occular problems because of the buggy eyes. But hell, I think pugs are the cutest things. Especially pug puppies. My grandmother has aways had pugs, I just grew up loving these fat little guys. Nobody can resist a wriggly, bouncing, face-licking, tail wagging itty-biddy puglet.

Their body-shape doesn't allow them to compete for food with narrow, more stream-lined fish, but body-shape isn't a direct threat to their health. Any aquarist worth their salt knows that you wouldn't put a fish in the position to be out manuvered by tankmates anyway. Just like any goldfish hobbiest will tell you not to keep koi, shubunkin, and commets with fancy fantails or ryukins. And any cichlid hobbiest will tell you not to put small fish in with large fish. Blood Parrots have no problems obtaining food from what I see, as long as nobody's there to eat it all first. But usually the Blood Parrots I see have no problem holding their own and chasing food snatchers.

I don't see how hybridization for food is any different from hybridization for looks, no matter what the destiny of the animal. Did you know that the manx trait (taillessness) in cats is a lethal gene? 25% of the offspring to a manx litter are stillborn because the gene is programed that way. Most "manx" cats are really bobtails. A true manx is a very rare find and is a difficult breed. So then, it isn't cruel to breed manx cats if the kittens are destined to die, right?

~~Colesea
PS: I have nothing against people who feel the Blood Parrot is ugly. You are entitled to that opinion. But what I want to know is why you don't like it because it is a hybrid. There are plenty of fish I don't like out there because I think they're ugly (like why anybody would think a platy is a cool looking fish is beyond me) that are not hybrids.

 

[kitten]

Because they are deformed! Hybrid animals are DEFORMED! Do you need any other reason for people not to like it??
It seems to me that hybridization is a fashionable thing, just like wearing real fur was. It's the same thing with every animal that they breed to look/act/taste "better", it's all about the money.

 

[Lynn]

My dogs (Bernese Mtn. Dogs) are lightly bred in this country and not changed much from what they were several hundred years ago. But this disscussion isn't about dogs or cats(although my great aunt breeds Manx cats 80% of her kittens are completely tailless and healthy as can be, thing is you don't breed Manx to Manx). Exactly! Do you know how much that fully grown parrot was? $400! A fully grown Red Devil is only $40 that is rediculus! I heard they take the eggs from one fish and milt from another mix it together in a bowl and thats how they get Parrots(if that has any truth to it). I don't dislike it because it is a hybrid, I don't like if for the fact of the extreme extent of the deformaties thats the bottom line for me. I don't care if it came from a test tube, its the fact that they thing is so grossly deformed that it can't even close its GD mouth. None of my goldfish have ever had a single swimbladder problem. An ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure.

 

[colesea]

Blood Parrot hybrids are produced from stripping and in vitro fertilization, as far as I know. The respective parents don't breed naturally because the courtship signals are probably all wrong. Does anybody know if there has been successful "natural cover" of the suppossed Blood Parrot parents resulting in Blood Parrot offspring? Nothing I could find in my research says there is, although some Blood Parrot owners have reported successful, if limited, spawning of Blood Parrot pairs to get more Blood Parrot offspring.

Pedigree goldfish are also bred by in vitro fertilization. Most breeding I've researched about goldfish say stripping and in vitro fertilization is the best way to breed, unless you don't care about the pedigree of your fish, then you can do mass pond production. If a breeder is seriously strapped for space and doesn't have the room for an orgey tank or pond, in vitro would be the best way to go. It would insure maxium production, and maximum survival if the fry are raised properly, as well as preserve pedigree in a fish known for mass spawnings.  All salmon and trout hatcheries use in vitro fertilization for maximum yeilds. And lots of human babies wouldn't have been born if it weren't for in vitro, because of masculine low sperm count. We won't even touch agriculture's use of this technique...

We're digressing.

To sum up. The biggest objection to the hybridization used to produce Blood Parrots is that it is breeding for a deformity to achieve a "cute" fish. This seems more a moral/ethical opinion to me. The major anatomical deformity of concern is that of the swim bladder, which can cause the Blood Parrot to list, swim improperly, and thus suffer a short life span. Although the mouth not being able to close has also been an anatomic deformity of  concern, there is no physicological evidance of this being in any way a threat to the health of the Blood Parrot. (Aye-ayes, a species of lemur in Madagascar, don't have eyelids, and therefore can't close their eyes. Talk about weird). So Blood Parrots have been condemned because of the deformities resulting from the hybridization that create them, well meaning people have confused this, and thus condemned hybridization itself. Issues regarding personal outrage over the expense of such a deformed fish can be covered on another thread.

Most of the basis for condemnation of hybridization has been of personal opinion that the resulting deformities that make the Blood Parrot what it is are ugly. There is no evidance that the deformities cause physiological heath issues that threaten the health of the fish, except in the swim bladderer. Such swim bladder disorders vary in degree from individual to individual and may be based upon other environmental factors, but as a whole, don't seem to be of conern to the Blood Parrot.

Yet people will condone the selective breeding for deformities in dogs and cats. This process does not use hybridization, per se, but the results are the same, a deformed animal. But the deformites are considered cute, such as pug puppies and manx kittens, and therefore okay to selectively breed for. Such deformities are known to cause physicological and genetic health issues that are a threat to the life of such animals with these deformities.

I'm not trying to stir the hornet's nest, just trying to understand the dicotomy in the view towards hybridization. Thanks for everyone's input.
~~Colesea

 

[colesea]

Mules are hybrids....the deformities occure in their reproductive systems, and doesn't pose any threat to their well being. If you try to breed two mules to get more mules, you'll be disappointed, but that's about it. Other then that, mules are healthier animals than either horses or donkeys.

Is it wrong to breed mules then because of their reproductive deformity? What about ligers (tiger x lion)? They're not natural either... Ligers are a completely man-made animal, but they are beautiful...
~~Colesea