Water Chemistry Problem

[aspiringangel]

People think I'm joking whe I say you need an advanced degree in chemistry to keep a fish tank happy and healthy, and here's my problem:

I live on a farm, and we're on pond water, so this may be part of the problem.

My gouramis aren't looking very happy. I had two females and a male, and the male recently died. He turned white near the end and was totally white when I had my bf fish him out of the tank after he'd died the other day. One of my girls is starting to go pale now, too. Other than testing ammonia and nitrite when my tank was cycling pre fish did I really ever test. A while ago I tested my pH and it was little higher than I would have liked, but the fish seemed okay. Since the male died, I tested ammonia, nitrite, KH and GH and of course pH. Here's my readings:
Ammonia & nitrite: 0
pH: 8.0
KH: 85.9
GH: 17.9

My pH is at the point where I am very worried. However, I haven't read anything that would help me raise my GH without raising the KH and subsequently raising the pH! HELP!!! I would like to lower the pH, obviously, and while the KH is pretty good it wouldn't hurt if it was lower (I think the limit is 50?) and I have really no clue waht such a low GH might mean to my fish.

Does anyone have a phd in fish chemistry?

 

[fishface]

kh and gh r the same its about hardness and softness in the water it should both be 50-100 or 100-150 0 to3 drops and 3 to 6 drops. i think... and ur ph is a little high.

 

[aspiringangel]

My problem IS the pH - and GH and KH aren't the same, one is about carbonate hardness, the other is about general hardness (which is calcium and magnesium) and although they are usually closely related, in this case, and I suspect it's because of the pond water, they aren't. I have performed the test several times, with the same results. Problem is I can't make the GH higher without raising the KH.

 

[lizwinz]

your ph is fine as long as it stays stable...fish dont need exactly 7.0 to do well

playing around with the ph and having it fluctuate would be more harmful that having a high ph

as far as gh, i wouldnt worry about it either... it is kh thats important as it will keep ph stable over time and shouldnt be too low, yours seems fine to me.... check out this page scroll down to the bottom to find info on kh & gh

http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-tests.html#gh

---liz

 

[FroggyFox]

So does a product like PH down screw with the hardness at all? I'm definitely not a phd when it comes to chemistry...but maybe you could get a jug of the water you use and try some different stuff to see how it effects the hardness? Peat lowers the PH...but does it do anything to the hardness...I think it also softens the water.

Are those the original parameters of your pond water...and do you have the resources to use tap water instead? It would make sense to me to make sure that you use all of the resources available to you before you go out and start buying RO water or chemicals.

Hopefully someone around here knows more about water chemistry than me! I am just trying to brainstorm for you...its what I would do if I were in your shoes!

 

[lizwinz]

ph down is worthless...the ph will go back up and this fluctuatation will harm the fish

peat moss would be better long-term but i think it does also soften the water...i dont see the need to mess with the ph anyway

--liz

 

[aspiringangel]

lizwinz - thanks. i know fluctuating pH is bad - this is why I didn't ask 'can I use pH down in my tank?' cause i'm sure the answer from many would be an emphatic 'NO!!!' I'm happy with the KH level - so maybe I should change my question to 'Why is my gourami displaying those signs that are listed under 'disease database' for 'pH too high?' Or, if not that, why did my last gourami die and why does this one look like it's on the way out?

Sigh.

Edited to add for froggy - I live on a farm and unfortunately as such cannot get tap water. I really don't want to have to buy r/o. I mean, I like fish, but I'm not obessesive or made of money. Oh, and for the tap water, the pH right out of the tap is an very nice 7.0!!! But, I left some in a jug over night, and checked it, and it was up to 8 next morning! I don't know about the other readings, didn't think to check.

 

[lizwinz]

going pale sounds like a general sign of stress...that could point to alot of problems/diseases

any other symptoms?

--liz

 

[FroggyFox]

8 is still pretty high I think...and if the fish are displaying signs of distress something has to be causing it right? (NOT necessarily the ph or the hardness...but something.)

I wouldn't screw with my ph (mine is right up there close to 8 aspiringangel) unless I thought it was harming the fish...then I might try some peat or something?

Do you have any deco in the tank (seashells, rocks) that could be raising your ph?

Do you have salt in your water? Fish losing color usually means they're stressed out...have you tried keeping the light off (dunno if you have live plants or not) How long did you have them in the tank before the male died?

If it was within a few days I would say it has something to do with your water parameters...but if it was quite awhile I would lean towards a sickness?

Its a hard thing to come up with a solution to because there are so many factors

 

[aspiringangel]

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any other problems with them before they get sick! He just... turned pale. He was spawning for about two weeks before that happened. It was too hot in the tank... but we've since turned the a/c on and the tank has been a comfy 26 (don't know the farenheit for that, sorry!) since. He was eating almost until the day he died, too. Once he stopped eating he sat around at the bottom of the tank for probably about a day and a half. Then the next morning, I had a dead fish!

edited for froggy again...

They've been in the tank for around 3 and half months. They seemed pretty happy until this point. I have a rock for the plecos, I don't know if that could do it or not? And three plastic plants. The light is on all day and I turn it off at night.

 

[lizwinz]

have you tested for nitrAtes?

high nitrAtes can stress fish over time and be very harmful...since you have pond water and live on/around farms (some fertilizers contain nitrates) they might be high right out of the tap, so regular water changes wont be able to keep up

if you havent tested already i would test for nitrAtes out of the tap and in the tank as well

--liz

 

[uncutbulldog]

I'm not sure if you know this but KH, GH, and PH are all dependant on each other. You can never change one parameter (permenantly) without changing the others.

Normally when one is high (PH) your KH and GH are also high. So if your readings are correct, I would say that this is temporary. Or your readings could be wrong.

Go to this site to confirm what I've said and also they talk about ways to correct PH, GH, and KH problems.

http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html

Hope this helps.

 

[aspiringangel]

Thanks uncutbulldog. I'd read somewhere that you pretty much have to tinker with all of them if you're going to tinker with one. I know why I didn't do well in chem class in high school now....

Today, the one that looked a little pale looked better. I'm so confused. Oh well.

Thanks for you help everybody! I will be going out and getting a nitrate tester this afternoon. Hope it'll shed some light on this situation.

I do have aquarium salt that I got when one of the girls got sick earlier - she got injured on a rock I think - and have added a little at every water change. The guy at my LFS said gouramis love salt, which is why I continued with it.

Again, thanks tons everyone!