Why are my fish dying on me??

[ChazECJr]

Maybe someone out there is smart enough and would be kind enough to tell me what the heck I am doing wrong.

I set up an Explorer in early April, with two white clouds (they had been in a one gal since January) and some Pothos cuttings, along with some plastic decor.  The fish seemed perfectly fine, even when I had a small ammonia spike, followed by a nitrite spike, in its third week of running.  I have not detected any ammonia in this tank since then.  I've done 25% water changes every week or two with gravel vac and nitrates have never been above 5 ppm.

After a few more weeks I added some java moss and two ghost shrimp to the tank.  I guess one shrimp would always pick on the other cause I would find one dead after a few days, replace it, find one dead, replace it, find one dead...

Three weeks ago was when I got my last shrimp and also my first betta.  Of course one of the two shrimps died again, leaving just one, but everything seemed fine after that...

Until just recently I noticed that the smaller white cloud had his tail nipped a bit and was not eating much, staying away from the surface.  I thought I had gotten a male/female pair but was mistaken, and the smaller male was now getting picked on, not sure if by the bigger male minnow, the betta or both.  The betta was not really that aggressive, he chased the larger minnnow from the top of the tank once in a while, but no real harm done.  Everyone except the smaller minnow ate like pigs, were active, had good color and seemed happy.  I decided to add a feamle minnow in the hopes of getting the big males attention off the small male.

I added the female Saturday.  She did not eat that night.  Nor did she eat Sunday.  Monday I found her dead, the betta snacking on her.  Ammonia was zero.  I got another female last night and went to add her to the tank.

I found the betta, always active and eating well before, dead.  Fins intact, no fungus, ick...but quite dead.

I did a 25% water change and added two teaspoons of salt.  The smaller minnow was so impressed with my aquarist skills that he dropped dead last night too.  I will not be at all surprised if the newest female dies soon as well...

So if anyone can tell me what I did wrong I'd like to know.  (And please don't tell me I'm overstocked, if you read the "How many fish" article on this site you will see that an Explorer has plenty of surface area (about 60 sq inches) for three white clouds and one betta, and also my nitrates were never that high either.)

Charlie

 

[Britfish]

Sorry to hear about the carnage!  What are you feeding them?  Keep at it and it will all be ok!  

 

[ChazECJr]

Thanks Britfish.

I had been feeding them Tetramin granules four times a week, and Tetra FD B-worms twice a week, once per day for just a few minutes; I'd rather underfeed than overfeed them.

 

[Britfish]

And they all seemed to be eating ok? My betta eats only sinking catfish tablets? Go figure?

 

[Matt Nace]

So both ammonia and nitrItes are 0 right?

How do you acclimate your fish you buy to your tank?

Did you dechlorinate your water with that 25% water change?

Did you buy all the fish from the same LFS?

How many gallons is an explorer?
What filtration is that?

 

[ChazECJr]

Everyone was eating fine except the smaller minnow.

Ammonia was zero the other night.

I haven't checked nitrite since the tank cycled several weeks ago.  If nitrite were high all the minnows would be effected I would think, but the big male is just fine.  Besides if you don't have ammonia, how do you get nitrite?  

I acclimated them all the same:  float the bag for 15 minutes in the tank, add some tank water to the bag after five and ten minutes have passed.  All the other fish I did this with were fine, except the female minnow.

I don't need to dechlorinate, my tap water supplier uses ozone, no chlorine. (Maybe thats the only good thing about my current situation...)

Minnows and moss came from the lfs; betta and shrimp came from Petsmart.

The Explorer is a two gal with a biowheel, plus carbon/mechanical filter cartridge.  Just changed the cartridge beginning of this month.

 

[Matt Nace]

You need to check your nitrItes.

Your bacteria could be sufficient enough to convert all your ammonia to nitrIte, but not all the nitrIte to nitrAte.

All fish are not always affected the same.

 

[equinom]

Sorry to hear about recent events.  Think about it this way - you are learning from the "accidents".   So this wont happen again.

 

[colesea]

Wow Charlie, this really sucks. I'm sorry.  

I wouldn't get fish from Petsmart anymore if I were you.  Some disease can kill without leaving a mark.  

Although like Matt Nace said, check your nitrItes too, although I don't think chemical spikes were your problem.

Really shop around and observe fish before you buy them.  Visit a store several weeks in a row on differant days, and don't buy anything, just give them a really good scurtiny.  Ask what day their fish come in. Sometimes you can get lucky if you buy fish right off the boat instead of it going into a retailer's tank.  Although this usually isn't the preferred method of making a purchase because you don't know what type of shipping stress those fish are under, but it is a heck of a lot better than waiting to see what they pick up from the retailer.  Usually if the fish are at the retailer for less than 24hrs they can be healthier than the one that have been in the store for a week.

So sorry for your loss.
~~Colesea

 

[ChazECJr]

Thanks Cole.  Only the shrimp came from a Petsmart tank (no one else around here carries ghost shrimp), the betta was in a cup, and seemed OK when I got him.  He died one week after the "warranty" lapsed, ain't that great?

Just checked ammo and nitrIte, both are zero.

The good news is that both the minnows are alive and the new female actually ate a little something tonight.

The bad news is that the female is "crashed on the bottom" a lot.  I don't know what else to do at this point but wait and see.

 

[catfishmike]

do you know you know how hot it was in there,i've found my 2gal. eeclipse as high as 86 deg. white clouds like cooler temps.and if yours was too hot then maybe it caused stress and disease in the white clouds.just a geuss

 

[ChazECJr]

Yes Mike you're right, the Explorer runs hot, it is sometimes close to 80F in there.  I didn't think this would be a big problem cause under the profile for this fish a couple people reported their clouds were fine over 80 F, though they might not breed.

It could be that the new one coudn't adapt well to it, while the others had been in the tank earlier in the year and had time to gradually adjust to higher temps as the weather warmed up.  I'm still surprised she died so quickly, clouds are supposed to be hardy "beginners fish," almost unkillable.  Anyone out there keep white clouds in an Eclipse??

I always chuckle when someone asks if they can keep a heater in their Eclipse 2 or 3 gal.  If they would just spend a dollar for a stick on thermometer they would see they don't need one.

 

[ChazECJr]

Well the other male minnow died last night.  The female is still around but did not eat last night.

I spoke with the owner of the lfs and he claimed no problems with disease or fish deaths in his tanks recently.  He asked for my water parameters and told me that at 5 ppm my nitrAtes are high and could have caused the problem, that nitrAte can be worse than nitrIte.  That's news to me.  He had no other ideas.

When are nitrates "high"?  I thought you were OK at 5 ppm but perhaps I'm mistaken, what does everyone here shoot for?

Oh well I'm sure the last minnow will be dead soon, after which this tank will make a great ghost shrimp home, how nice.  Though I could get another free replacement minnow, I'm afraid to put anymore fish in there, if this is a disease how do I get rid of it?  Wait a few weeks?  Empty the tank and blast everything with hot water?  What about the biowheel?  Should I try something general, like Quickcure?  Or what?

 

[ronrca]

Well, the petstore guy is wrong. 5ppm for nitrates are low. Maybe he meant nitrites!?

Well, first things first. You mentioned in your first post that you added 2 teaspoons of salt. Are you still adding that much salt?

If so, that is way too much salt for a 2G. It comes to 19% salt. This kind of content is good for removing leechs from pond fish in a 15-20minute bath. If you would to add salt for a continuous bath, you should be using 0.1%-0.3%salt content or 1/30th of a teaspoon. Basicly a pinch of salt. Anything above that will kill your fish.

Whitecloud minnows are very hardy fish therefore something is drasticly wrong. Its not temp. I have had minnows at 90F for a period of 4 weeks. No problems. What about pH?

If it is a disease and you lose all your fish anyways, dont bother with tearing the tank down. Way too much work and unneccessary. Wait for 4 weeks and the disease will of die also. Without a host, the disease will disappear.

 

[WonderFish]

You added your fish right after you bought them?  I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this yet, I didn't see it, but this is a BAD idea unless you are sure that your fish are healthy.  Adding newly bought fish to an aquarium with fish can mean disaster, as you've well found out.  Unless you know when the fish came in to your LFS and how long that they've been in their tanks, you can't be sure that they wont add desiease to your aquarium.

Next time the best thing to do is set up a quarantine tank and monitor the new fish for about 2 weeks.

 

[ChazECJr]

No, I meant that I added two teaspoons of salt to the tank, period.  Thats one teaspoon per gallon, which I thought was a good dose for disease treatment.  I have not added any salt since that one time.

I haven't checked pH, didn't think it was a big deal, I have always used tap water and last time I checked (months ago) the tank and tap water always had the same pH, about 7.8 or so.

 

[ronrca]

And your sure that you have no chlorine in your tapwater?

About the ph in tapwater, well, my tap water goes up drasticly after 3 days. C02 dissapates from the water driving ph up.

 

[ChazECJr]

Just tested the tank water, pH is still 7.8.  I think my water is pretty hard, which keeps the pH high.

Latest water report says they use ozone here, not chlorine.

The one minnow is still alive and actually ate pretty well tonight, is swimming OK, not "crashed on the bottom."  Why she hasn't died yet I don't know, I haven't done anything with the tank since the night I put her in.  I hate to see her by herself; how long do I wait before I get her a "boyfriend", or should I not bother I wonder...?

 

[luvfishies]

Too bad the tank is small..WCMM are schooling fishies, and are kind of aggressive in numbers under 5. At least mine are!

Now, I don't suggest adding 5 WCMM to a 2g tank..that's not a good idea either. But, with only 2, they could have been stressed enough to sicken and die.

I would also test the nitrites..you can have them spiking even with the ammonia testing "0"..all that could mean is that you "missed" the ammonia spike.

For disease the recc'd dosage of salt is 1 TABLEspoon/5gals.

And 60ppm nitrates are high,.,..NOT 5 ppm....2 ppm nitrites are high.