[/55gallondrama]...for now

[Big Vine]

Or maybe the drama is just getting started again...? See updated sig.

Convict you see in the following pics is the larger, less-colorful of the two males I have...
I decided that he was a keeper too, so what better place for him than in with the sals, right?

...don't worry...the pair is now nestled safely in my 20 gallon tank.

Female con was guarding some eggs in the 55 gal. prior to her and hubby's move to the 20 gal. She wasn't letting the male near the eggs. Hopefully they'll be off to a fresh start now that they've been moved.

BV

 

[FreshwaterJeff]

Couldn't kick the Salvinis, could you?

Should be interesting - what happened to the second female con?

 

[Cichlid-Man]

Haha, looks good.

Is that a 20L?

 

[Big Vine]

Some folks over at cichlid-forum seem to think it'd be best to either keep 2 salvini pairs OR a salvini pair and a convict pair (assuming, of course, that I want to keep more than one pair in this tank).

I want one salvini pair, and I'd like to incorporate the convict(s) as well.
Originally I was thinking just the lone male convict. I assumed he could serve as a "dither" for the salvini. The whole idea being to distract the salvinis away from any type of domestic disputes and redirect their aggression---at least in part---toward the convict.

Cichlid-forum folks are indicating that a convict pair would be better than just a lone male convict, but personally I just see it as a recipe for even more fireworks. Who knows? They're the "experts," right? Maybe I should listen.

Jeff...I got rid of the other female convict and was only going to hold the extra male as a back-up until I knew for sure the 'forced pair' would work out, but then he seemed like a good candidate to be in with the salvinis, so I put him in with them.

Matt...It's a 20 gal. long.

Thanks, guys. Any thoughts on the lone male convict "dither" vs. pair theory?
BV

 

[straitjacket]

Good to see you giving the sals another try. *thumbsups

There are pros and cons to both a pair of cons or a single con in with the Sals.

A single con may become targeted and forced out of the tank or killed.
But it's slightly less on the load of the tank and would take up less room than a pair would.

A pair could defend itself better than a single fish could.
Of course, they're not always going to be spawning at the same time so it's possible for one pair to wail on the other depending on who's got more to protect.

 

[Big Vine]

Excellent insights, straitjacket. And thanks for the support!
I figured I owed myself and the salvini another chance. I think (hopefully) that I'm going about it a lot better this time.

A pair could defend itself better than a single fish could. Of course, they're not always going to be spawning at the same time so it's possible for one pair to wail on the other depending on who's got more to protect.

Hmm...
I understand what you're saying, but now I'm still as confused on the whole issue, lol.

As it stands now, the male convict is slightly larger than the largest salvini. He was in the tank first, and he is a boisterous fellow (at least compared to the other male convict I have with a female in the 20 gal.), so he is boss...at least for now...

The convict pair I have consists of smaller fish...smaller than the salvinis.
Based on that, I'm inclined to keep the larger male convict in there solo with the salvinis.

Overall, I'm not worried about the salvinis taking a beating, because they can more than hold their own against convicts. I'm more worried about the convict(s) in the long-run. I guess my thinking is that the lone male convict would pose less of a threat to the sals and, thus, get away with being ignored more than a convict pair would.

Sound workable?

BV

 

[Katie217]

Well BV, since you said that you want to do it right this time, please promise that you will keep them in the same tank (no moving fish in or out - unless needed (getting beaten to a pulp)) and give them a few chances at breeding. I honestly dont even remember why you got rid of the salvinis the first time anyways?
Good luck though, I know its hard trying to chose what cichlids (or any fish for that matter) that you want to keep permenantly, but I honestly dont think that you've been keeping fish in the 55gal for long enough to know what you want. One week the convicts, the next the sals...All that moving cant be good for the fish, imagine the stress they must be going through when you do that.
/rant

 

[straitjacket]

Sounds good to me.
As it is, seeing how they'll all be growing up together, it might work out just fine.
Ultimately though, well, it gets unsure. Seeing how sal males tend to average a larger size than cons. One could certainly use that to their advantage.
In my short time with them it wasn't the male I had to worry about though. It was the fiery little she-beast!

 

[Big Vine]

Yes, Katie, you're right.
This time I'll show evidence of missing eyes and scales flying prior to moving anything.

In my short time with them it wasn't the male I had to worry about though. It was the fiery little she-beast!

Lol...in your short time with salvini, or with cons?
My female convict...tiny as she is (1-1.5") is a real firecracker!

Hmm...maybe I should throw the convict pair in after all, lol.

But seriously, I think I'll just keep the male convict in with the sals and see how things go. He'll be fine for quite some time and may even end up surviving long-term in with a breeding pair of salvini. (if not, I'll simply move him...but I'm sure that won't be for months down the road, if ever)

I still think a lone male convict, although technically weaker than a pair of convicts, would be perceived as less of a threat by the salvinis. Less drama, I think, anyway. We'll see.
BV

 

[Katie217]

Sorry BV if my post seemed...somewhat offensive, I of course didnt mean it in that way. I'm just thinking of the well-being of the fish here.
Know what I'd do? Keep the 5 sals in the tank, with the male con. Leave them there until you FORSURE have gotten a succesfull breeding pair of sals. (by succesfull, I mean they lay eggs, protect, dont eat, and hatch) This allthough, could take a few tries. The male convict I dont think will be an issue in the tank. He might get beaten up during breeding time for the sals, but hopefully he would catch on to stay away during that time.
Goodluck

 

[Big Vine]

Sorry BV if my post seemed...somewhat offensive, I of course didnt mean it in that way. I'm just thinking of the well-being of the fish here.

Hehe...no problem.
My response was intended to be sarcastic---but in a good way.

Know what I'd do? Keep the 5 sals in the tank, with the male con. Leave them there until you FORSURE have gotten a succesfull breeding pair of sals. (by succesfull, I mean they lay eggs, protect, dont eat, and hatch) This allthough, could take a few tries.

I will give them several tries, at the very least.
Matter of fact, a guy over at cichlid-forum who has a lot of experience with breeding salvinis recently gave me a rundown of how long it took for him to get a successful pair. Let's just say that patience is definitely key, so I'll be putting the tank under lock & key, lol.

The male convict I dont think will be an issue in the tank. He might get beaten up during breeding time for the sals, but hopefully he would catch on to stay away during that time.

Awesome, thanks Katie.
I was kinda thinking the same thing...figuring he'd just stay out of their way. I'll leave him be, as you suggested.

That way I can keep the convict pair in the 20 gallon and let them drum up bucket-loads of fry to feed to the salvini.

I just need to quit second-guessing everything and trying to account for every single variable ahead of time. Salvini and convicts are both fairly robust CA cichlids, so it's not so far-fetched to house them together in a 55 gal. tank. I need to buckle down on my own and find out what does or doesn't work based on my own experiences that I need to create---rather than merely rely on the millions of differing opinions on how to do things that I keep receiving from more experienced CA cichlid folks.

Sure, their experience and feedback is valid...probably quite valuable...
But my thinking is that no two tanks are exactly the same. Neither are the fish, even though they may be the same species.

Best to try it out for myself and let it happen...for better or for worse...
Worst-case scenario with a breeding pair of sals is that the male con (later on down the road) gets the snot kicked out of him. No biggie. I can simply move him at that time or do some rearranging, right?

Thanks again!

[/BVramblingsession]
BV

 

[straitjacket]

...in your short time with salvini, or with cons?

With the sals. I've read elsewhere instances where other folks had hyperaggressive females so I guess it's not uncommon.
Cons were the cichlids that got me started on cichlids . I got into Africans from there. I have 2 pairs of cons right now.

I agree with the set-up you've got planned and the logic behind it. A little less daunting than a whole other pair of cichlids that might potentially have to be rehomed in the long-run. Equally possible that it would work out permanently.

 

[Big Vine]

So you have two breeding pairs of cons? Are they all striped cons, or do you have different varieties? How old/big are they? Any pics?

I agree with the set-up you've got planned and the logic behind it. A little less daunting than a whole other pair of cichlids that might potentially have to be rehomed in the long-run. Equally possible that it would work out permanently.

Excellent! Sounds like a plan.
You know I'll be giving lots of updates too. So far I've got a good feeling about it, so that's a start, lol.

Thanks again.
BV

 

[straitjacket]

One pair is in my 135. 3.5" (SL) male and 2" female. Bought them as fry for $1 each.
They're pinks with the marble gene. The male has some small botches on one side of his belly and his female has a tiny black spot in her dorsal.
Male
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...s nigrofasciatus/4-20-06033-ConMarbleMale.jpg
Female
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...a/Cryptoheros nigrofasciatus/8-26-06176-C.jpg

The second pair, well, you can read up on them here.
The female from this pair was originally paired with the pink male and they'd throw lots of marble fry but I'd still get plenty of clean pinks. Even then much of the marble fry weren't any more blotched than their mother.
I'd like to breed for some blotchier fry. A 50/50 pink:black or 40/60 pink:black. I was lucky to find Smash, the smallest getting beat on out of a batch of pink and marbles but he had the best pattern. I honestly didn't think he'd live very long cause he looked kind of sickly when purchased but he flipped a complete 180. lol

Still wish I hadn't lost my sals. They were hella fun too. I'd like to give them another go but that means I'll probably have to wait another 5 years before I find some really nice ones again. *SLEEPING*

 

[Big Vine]

Very nice convicts---I love how Smash has that black stripe and blotching on him...stands out so well against his white body! You get darker substrate in there yet?

How did you lose your sals, by the way?
BV

 

[straitjacket]

Thanks.
Haven't switched the sand yet. I hadn't thought about the complications of trying to switch out a substrate and trying not to harm any fry at the same time. :/

The male sal I lost when I moved from OC to LA (along with the larger of my argentea, some Africans and a Biotodoma wavrini ).
The female is still a mystery. It was about a month after the move and she never settled in as well as everyone else did. It's like she was in shock. Almost seemed to get better when she started eating again and taking up the old hussy behavior with the Uro and then I went to check on them one morning and she was dead.
The Uro moped like nothing I'd ever seen before. At first I thought someone might have killed her, maybe even the uro himself, but she was in perfect condition when I found her. Then I thought if it was illness that killed her that the uro might have contracted it being so close to her all the time and preemptively treated the tank for any general maladies. No one else died or even became ill though. I think it'll remain unsolved.

 

[Big Vine]

I think it'll remain unsolved.

Yeah, that's too bad. Losing the fish sucks, but not knowing the exact cause even makes it worse, IMO. I hate when that happens---especially with such a tough fish. *SICK*

Something I noticed with my latest batch of salvini is that they are way more sociable than the ones I had on my initial attempt at keeping them. They're a bit younger, for the most part, and they were in the tank at the LFS with very little cover for several weeks before I got them---in a high-traffic area, no less. I think they just got used to having lots of people around, which is a bonus for me because they actually swim up to the glass when I approach the tank!

Nothing like my first batch...which were a bit older and had been kept in a large floor-level tank with lots of cover and darkness, for the most part. They seemed very skittish from the get-go. Highly-reclusive compared to the ones I have now.

Either way, I've read that even the shy ones tend to 'warm up' to their owners after several months, so I'm not worried at all. The convict comes up to 'visit' me all the time anyway, which makes up for any hiding on the part of the sals, lol.

BV

 

[jessey]

BV, i'm glad to see you're giving this another go! you decided the salvinis will do fine in the 55 gallon long-run, or you're going to upgrade? (i'm assuming the first is the case, since i know you weren't planning on getting a bigger tank...) i hope you find a nice pair soon, i can't wait to see this tank as things come together!

 

[Big Vine]

Thanks, Jessey.

you decided the salvinis will do fine in the 55 gallon long-run, or you're going to upgrade?

A pair of them should be okay for life in the 55 gal. tank just as long as they get along fairly well. I'm not sure how long it takes the male to surpass the 5-6" mark, but whenever that happens, I'm kinda hoping I'll be into a bigger place so that I can look into housing them in a bigger tank.

For now, it should work out as is.
Some folks over on cichlid-forum seem to think that the convict might be in peril later on down the road, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

BV

 

[Fishoil]

The only experience I have w/ salvini is this:

1 female and three males in a 55 w/ a decent sized FM. Once a pair formed, the FM was quickly scaled, eyes removed and all fins chewed off. This all over a few hours while I was away. Next were the two other males. Same thing started, but I was able to get them out of the tank in time. Two days later I came home to the female in the same condition as the FM. I had been warned over and over that pairs often don't work in a tank that small, but I figured I would be the exception. Why not try - they are gorgeous fish afterall.

Hope you have better luck. I just couldn't bring myself to try again knowing what would probably happen again.