New to SW with a few questions

duijver · Sep 10, 2008

Hi Everyone,

I wanted to start by saying THANK YOU for all of the information that I have read out here thus far. It has been very very helpful. I had a saltwater tank as a teenager (sort of) and I decided that I really wanted to give it another try myself. Years ago our tank only lasted about 6m-1year before it went bad. Now that I have been doing a lot of research I can easily see what went wrong.

I purchased a use setup from someone local in town, 45g (high), wet/dry amiracle filter, aqua clear protein and a bunch of live rock. The tank was not maintained for at least 3 months. No water change for 3 months, no cleaning algae, etc etc. I took, and kept, about 60-70% of the original water, but I emptied the tank and razor bladed off all of the bad red and green stuff. Most was red. And at this point everything appears operational after about a week. I even inherited a fish, no idea what he is, that somehow survived their abuse.

I did have a few questions:
- Since they neglected the rock so much, is there any chance of it still being live right any more, or should I just treat it as base rock? The rock is FULL of garbage lying on it and white worms that appear dead. Those same white worms were /are inside the filter as well. I’m guessing that it’s 30-50 lbs of rock, so I’m trying to decide how much I should buy to establish the ecosystem.
- The wet/dry filter is siphon based and I have a stable power, but I am still concerned about the power going out and the tank spilling over. I’ve seen a few possible solutions, but I was wondering if anyone has used the modified elbows that feed the wet/dry sump?
- I’ve read a few articles mentioning that the bio balls are not really that good, especially if you don’t clean them very often in cycles. I could not find any local store that knew anything about bio balls. They only sell canisters, but online it looks like bio balls are still somewhat popular, but meant for advanced enthusiasts. I’m guessing that I should probably purchase some extra bio balls so I’m not washing them in the faucet and then just putting them in place? Is it safe to wash them in chlorinated water and replace them? Is allowing them time to dry good enough?
- I noticed that the wet/dry container also has a chemical pack. If I put live rock and/or chaetomorpha should this be removed or just make sure that I keep it in a separate compartment?
- Should I add snails to my tank or might they interfere with my live rock? If so, which type would be most beneficial and is ten to many (sold on ebay)?

I apologize; I know that was a lot to absorb! I really appreciate any feedback.

Photo: Refugium | SaltWaterTank album | Ben | Fotki.com

Photo: DSC00353 | SaltWaterTank album | Ben | Fotki.com

Photo: DSC00347-small | SaltWaterTank album | Ben | Fotki.com

vipers · Sep 11, 2008

duijver said:

the rock is dead! it is usually dead a few hours out of water..if that.... so basically its worthless..... the usual rule of thumb is to have as many lbs of rock as you do gallons of water... so 45lbs or live rock is a very good stable amount of rock
-

duijver said:

there are marine 1-way valves that are easily put on the line of the pump... a proven asset to my tank (as the power has gone out numerous time)

duijver said:

bio-balls work perfectly fine in a fish-only tank..but if your gonna do any sort of reef... youll want to ditch them and go with a refugium.. this is due to bio-balls not being able to get rid of nitrates, which is basically harmless to fish, but deadly to coral...

and you NEVER want to clean bioballs once they are running in the tank.. by "cleaning" them, you are removing all the essential bacteria that they were designed to grow and maintain the system....

i would definently clean all the parts to this tank vigorously before starting it back up though... since all the bacteria is dead anyways...

duijver said:

this i cannot answer

duijver said:

when first starting up a tank, you wont need a cleaning crew... but when your system is fully established, and growing algea and such, youll want to add "the crew".... and its up to you what you wanna put in there, as there are many types of crab/snails that can do the job well

ALSO..... i would highly recommend to scrap all the water and start completely over and let a new cycle start... if the water wasnt maintained and you dont know what the previous owner did... its safe to just start over.... find a temporary home for the fish (probubly a damselfish which can survive just about anything)...

duijver · Sep 11, 2008

Vipers,

Thank you for the great reply! As far as the live rock is concerned.. It was never out of the water for more than a minute or two - at least not during transportation. It was; however, without great airation for about 30-45 minutes while it was in a 5gal bucket full of the tank's water. I do still see some sea worms(?) white and clear and I just saw one fan this morning! If the rock does not come back are you suggesting that I dump it totally or just add to?

The 1-way value is only part of the problem - correct? There is still a possibilty of the system emptying out from the input. How do people normally compenstate for that.

As far as the bio balls and cleaning them. I was only following the previous owners advise and if I am not mistaken, the book I bought, The New Marine Aquarium, mentions that you should clean them as well - just not all at once.

I know that the water's salinity was off my hydrometer's chart when I received it. I did a 50% water change and it's sitting at about 1.025 now, but I expect that to decrease as I continue to add clean water in the sump. I do plan on making a small(er) refugium in my sump with the bioballs.

Thank you again for the help!

Lotus · Sep 11, 2008

Welcome to the site!

No, your rock isn't dead. Even if it was out of water for a few hours, it would still be OK. How is your water testing in terms of ammonia, nitrites and nitrates? And how is the fish doing? You may want to add a couple of pounds of fresh rock, but otherwise, it should be fine.

You would be better off replacing the bioballs with live rock, as it will give you a healthier system (lower nitrates), especially if you plan on having corals.

What you have for the plumbing is a hang on back overflow. They can work well. I'm probably the worst person to talk about plumbing, though.

I'd give the tank a couple of weeks to settle, with testing, before adding snails. Be warned, sometimes eBay sellers are selling the wrong snails (either bad for a tank, or from temperate waters).

Edit: The fish looks like some kind of damsel.

Lorna · Sep 11, 2008

Welcome and I will add a few things to help flesh out that which was given by Lotus et al.

The term live rock refers to the beneficial bacteria, not to the actual life that may or may not be inhabiting the crevices of the rock. Your rock is not dead as long as it hasn't been totally dried out. I would suggest that you remove the rock and scrub it with a toothbrush and rinse it with tank water to remove as much algae as you can, this can easily be done using water that you are changing.......I would also remove the bioballs as you have enough live rock to perform the same feat without the added nitrates that will be a problem later with the bioballs. Yes you see them for sale as some lfs still claim (old school of thought) that they are what it is needed. (fine for fish only NOT for a reef) you can use your existing wed/dry as a refugium....by adding some cheato and a light source.....you can add some rock rubble or a sand bed which will become live sand after a while also....you don't need the chemical pack but if you have a lot of phosphates you may use a phosphate scrubber here as the rock may have absorbed some due to miscare.

Test out the rest of the parameters, your sg at 1.025 is good try and maintain that by replacing water with premixed saltwater and topping off with fresh water.

A HOB overflow with a U siphon tube is virtually fool proof but things can happen and here are some ways to mitigate that happening.
a. always make sure that nothing can block the siphon tube such as a wayward snail or algae by ensuring you have an overflow box in the main tank with teeth cut in the top edge to keep out snails. The tube will maintain the siphon even if the power goes out as the water level in the tank will decrease below the outer overflow level and all will stop, once power comes back on, the return pump will pump to the top and the siphon will restart. Test this numerous times and you will see how it works. Make sure the U tube has no air locks in it or air bubbles, these will slow down the siphon and build up over time. If the siphon were to stop the level in the sump will drop as there isn't any water feeding it and the return pump will run dry and not have any water to pump to the top....therefore no flood. DO NOT PUT A VALVE on either the drain or the tank return......these have been known to fail. the U tube should not fail, but if it does the pump will run dry, just make sure you have enough space in your sump to accomodate any backflow when the power goes out and that the return nozzle has a siphon hole just below the water surface, the water will drain back to this break so you want to make sure that the sump can handle about 3-4 gallons of water without overflowing......

here is a good site on sumps, they use a different type of overflow but I strongly believe in the U tube type.....

Melevsreef.com | Acrylic Sumps & Refugiums

as for a cleanup crew, once your tank isn't cycling then add a cleanup crew of various snails such as nassarius vibex (not the ones from ebay), astreas, nerite, ceriths, turbos etc. all have specific areas that they work on so a mixture of all the above would be more beneficial. I don't recommend hermits as they tend to become shell jackers.

I hope this helps and keep asking questions, it is how we learn....

vipers · Sep 11, 2008

yeah, i assumed you had the rock out of water for day/weeks... sorry... my mess up

duijver · Sep 11, 2008

vipers said:

I should have been more specific, and I was pretty negative because as far as I was concerned it looked pretty dead. Thank you again for your response. To be honest, since the tank was in such bad shape I am pretty surpised that anything is coming back from it. I guess life always finds a way.

duijver · Sep 11, 2008

Lorna – Thank you!

I’m guessing that the feather dusters (and other creatures) are unharmed in this process or should I just gently scrub unless I see a large amount of green/brown algae? As far as removing the bio balls – should I just put a piece of live (or layer) rock on top of the plastic crate and raise the water level a bit so it’s covered? Should I chisel the pieces so they are smaller pieces like some companies sell smaller chunks of rocks for the sump? I will then buy some chaeto from ebay (somewhere better?) and place that into the 2nd compartment. Would you suggest leaving the sponge in place or should that be removed as well? Should I be adding iodine / calcium to my tank at this point?

At this point, in your opinion, what would be a better investment?

1. Upgrading my lighting (80’s style dual ballast florescent bulb 30 watt) to something like this - 36'' Power Compact Aquarium Light 2X 96 w/ Moon Lunar - eBay (item 170259214867 end time Sep-12-08 11:18:36 PDT)
a. My current setup raises the temp from 78F to 80/81F each day
b. I have been using a single CF 16W or 18W running at the 6500K spectrum and it seems to be working well. Should I just use 2 of these or the 100W(eqiv) bulbs?
c. My concern is that this tank is deep

2. Buying 20 or so lbs of Fiju rock from ebay, maybe this guy FIJI LIVE ROCK WALT SMITH PRECURED LOW SHIPPING - eBay (item 160280578215 end time Sep-17-08 04:29:32 PDT). Or if you guys think it’s better I could just suck it up and pay the $8 or $19(Petco!) a pound for live rock.
3. Leave it alone

I live on the Jersey shore, so can I use that sand for the refugium if I quarantine it for a few days/month? Are all “live” things really off limits?

When I make new (salt) water should it sit for a day or two while being aerated or can I safely mix and use? Should my de-clorinated fresh water (for top off) be aerated while it sits in the 5gal pail (if closed?)

Finally, is this a living creature or some food Photo: life-or-garbage | SaltWaterTank album | Ben | Fotki.com that should be removing before it adds to ammonia? So far, the water’s chemistry appears in check.

I should also mention my (long) intentions for my tank. I currently have the mistery fish(damsel probably) a blenny and a hermit. I would like to add a clown(or two) and 1-2 chalk bass (these may get to big for 45g). Then of course I would go with the clean-up crew of snails and some other type of invertebrate (feather dusters and cleaner/pepermint shrimp). I would like to add in some frags as well, but I am very concerned about my lighting (depth) and summer water temperatures (house is normally 78degrees in the summer). At the very least I will probably add some soft coral and see how they do - leather or mushroom.

It sounds like I may want to release the hermit if I want snails, but that will be considered later. There are A LOT of snail/crab shells in the tank so maybe he's done a lot of hijacking

Thank you again!
Ben

Lorna · Sep 13, 2008

If you have sufficient live rock (1 - 2 lbs per gallon) in the display you really don't need any in the sump/fuge. You could just remove the bioballs gradually (1/2 one week remainder about a week or so later) put some chaeto in the fuge section. I wouldn't use sand from the beach as you don't know what could be in it as far as pollutants etc. Just some oolite sand from the lfs is better and it is aragonite based and will become live after a while)

The lights you have are okay for fish only but you should think about upgrading your lights to support more diversified corals later on. I would save my money and look at maybe a T5 set up as you will need more than the one suggested for corals. If you are handy at all you can build your own light set up in a hood using a retrofit kit or such....many on here have done it and can guide you on how to build a hood.

Take the sponge out as it will just trap detritus and cause a nitrate spike no doubt unless kept scrupuliosly clean. You can cool your tank down by getting a small fan to blow across the surface but it shouldn't be too much of a problem until next summer. A temp of 78 to 80 during the day isn't bad, it is wide temp fluctuations that are the problem...and 2 degrees is pretty normal.

Good luck you are on the right track, and btw, don't add any chemicals to your tank as frequent water changes should replenish any calcium & trace minerals etc that are being depleted. I can't tell by the pic what that is on the rock, but it appears to have good color ie. coraline growth on it. Water change water should be mixed about 24hr in advance with a power head to areate it and measure your water temp/parameters to make sure that they match before changing the water. If not using ro/di water you may want to make sure you use water from the ro kiosk in the grocery stores as most tap water can lead to algae issues down the road.....hope this helps

duijver · Sep 17, 2008

Lorna,

Thank you again for all of your help. It looks like i'm learning early that tap water is no good. My tank was just hit by a MAJOR brown algae bloom in the past 2 days. This stuff is spreading like a plague and I am wondering if it somehow came from the LR I added to my refu. I guess at this point it does not really matter much, but I was wondering if there were any suggestions on how to remove it? The bloom really started after I did a 10% water change this weekend using a declor+nutrient product.

Because I am new, I just can't tell if it was the tap water, product I used to clean the water, the LR addition, me removing 1/2 of the bioballs or some other reason. I guess I need to stop futzing with my tank and leave it alone.. ?

I suspect that the best way to clean up is to scrub the rocks with a toothbrush? But, how do I cleanup algae that is on soft coral? The buildup is so bad in 2 days that the coral did not even come out today. Is the algae smothering it?

Here are some pictures of the coral (unknown what time) before and from today.

Soft Coral - before Bloom (Larger)

Aglae Bloom - Full Size (Big)

What it looks like now (pretty much the same view/vantage point w/ less depth of field) Notice that none of the life is present:

Thanks guys!

Lotus · Sep 17, 2008

The brown algae (diatoms) is completely normal in a new tank. It usually goes away on its own in a few weeks.

The first pic looks like briareum which is an encrusting gorgonian that's easy to keep. The second looks like an aiptasia, a pest glass anemone.

duijver · Sep 17, 2008

Wow! I kind of liked the pest... I did a quick google search and it seems like I need to nuke him FAST. Since the coral on that rock (above him) hasn't really come alive yet, should I just take the rock out and tweezer him or is that just to dangerous? He's only been in my tank for a few days.

Thank you about the feedback on the Diatoms. I did a few other searches and that's what others mentioned, but I guess my concern was over it being on the briareum and sufficating it. It sounds like my concerns as misguided as a new parent..

Thanks again!

Lotus · Sep 17, 2008

You can blow the diatoms off the coral with a turkey baster, if you want. It might annoy the coral. Those are pretty tough corals, in my experience. The braireum is often called green star polyps, but there are two corals that are called that (the other grows out of individual polyps). That one will crust over rocks (and any other corals in its path). It's a good idea to isolate the rock its on, so it doesn't overtake your tank.

The aiptasia can be taken care of in a couple of ways. Pulling it or cutting it won't kill it. You can use either lemon juice, kalk paste or hot water in a syringe into its mouth. Or, you can use some superglue to seal it into the crevice. There are also several commercial products that come with a syringe that you squirt into the mouth.

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