Need help with my fishless cycle...

[michellefl]

Hi all - this is my first tank.

I followed the directions for the fishless cycle, and thought I was getting to where we needed to be. Now I don't know what to do!

I started by adding the ammonia. Nothing changed for about 2 weeks. Ammonia was showing around 4 I think (emerald green).

Finally last week I started seeing the ammonia drop. Once it dropped to .25 I added more ammonia to bring it back up to 1. Nitrites were up, and I was waiting for the nitrates to start doing their job.

Today, ammonia is back down, but the nitrites are up to 5 and 160 for the nitrates. So I now know that the high nitrates and the subsequent algae are because the nitrates were high...

I performed a water change this am. I took out 60% of the water. I would have taken more but my husband disagreed with me (now I wish I had just gone with my instincts!). We added in water (10 gallons in a 20 gallon tank). The water was low already (I had the tank top open for aeration and reduced water to get the filter to cause more splashing.

Anyway - after the water change, there is no change to the nitrates and nitrites...so I am concerned I did something wrong. I hate to have to take out all that water again, and readd. I wish I had just taken 90%.

How do I get this tank back on the right direction...? I hate to keep adding the ammonia since I am feeding this issue, but don't want to kill the bacteria!
LOL - help!

 

[Chris_A]

Don't worry too much, this is why you do a fishless cycle . LOTS of room for error this way.

My first thought is you might have been adding too much ammonia. How much and how often were you dosing? Once I know that we can work on a more reasonable amount to dose.

The second thing is if after a large water change like that you are still reading what I'll guess is the highest reading on your test kits (API?) that means the levels were substantially higher OR the kits are not accurate.

So, here's what you do to find out what the levels actually are.
1) Divide the amount of sample water in half. You have to be fairly accurate so a small graduated syringe is your best bet.
2) Make up the other half of the test sample with distilled water. (should be able to get a small jug at most pharmacies)
3) Continue with the normal testing instructions.
4) MULTIPLY the results by 2.
If you are still reading the max do a 1/4 instead of a half and multiply by 4.

I'd also test the distilled water just to make sure you even CAN get a 0 reading, if not, check the expirey date on the kit. Even then, if that's good wouldn't be the first time I've seen API put out a bad batch of kits.

Chris

 

[michellefl]

Hi Chris
I started with about 4 capfuls of ammonia. I increased it gradually to that total testing every hour or so (one capful at a time). I got up to 4 I think. Then I didn't add anything until the ammonia dropped to below 1. I added a capful a day for I think the past 3-4 days and each day the ammonia dropped. (it took about 2.5 weeks to start to drop).

I tested distilled water, and the results were 0 so it looks like the test was good.

I did the 1/2 distilled and 1/2 tank water, and the results appear the same. I may actually be at 40 ppm with this mix. My kids stole my color gauge, so until I get to the store for replacements, I am using the guide on line (I know it might be off due to the colors on the screen...) My nitrites appear to be at 5 still...it is a very pretty dark violet color...

With the 1/4, 3/4 mix I am getting closer to 2ppm on nitrites and nitrates look much better. No more red - just a nice orange somewhere in the range of the 10-20 ppm.

Will it take time for things to adjust after the water change? I can retest tomorrow too. maybe things will calm down. I have not added ammonia yet today. But, I did test after adding the ammonia each time, and it never went over 1 after the first initial dosing.


FWIW - here is the color chart I am looking at. The only card I still have is ammonia... KIDS*crazysmil*crazysmil
Google Image Result for http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/images/graphics/nitratecolor2.jpg

 

[michellefl]

One final thing - I tested the water we are putting into the tank, and it was o/o as well. We actually are using bottled spring water because we have an overabundant supply of it at the moment...

 

[Chris_A]

Alright! That means the water change did do something . So nitrates at ~80ppm and nitrites ~8ppm.

I'll have to do a bit of looking but I used to have an excel spread sheet worked up as a calculator for fishless cycling. My ex was into downloading games and such from what I would consider questionable sites so I lost it in a crash about 2 years ago. Kinda sucks but meh.

So the last 10gal I cycled fishless I just used 5 mL (normally that's about a cap full) in the first day and when the ammonia started to drop I'd add 0.5 mL (10 drops)every second day. Then again, it was only for a Mantis shrimp so the expected bioload was VERY low.

Really there is 2 ways to think about a fishless cycle. To merely establish the bacteria so there is little lag time when you do add fish or to get a tank up to full capacity before adding the fish. Personally I would only do the second if I had my calc still.

What your goal should be is to have a 0 reading for ammonia even though you are still adding it in small amounts. If you maintain an elevated reading you will ALWAYS have some nitrite showing. As with everything else in life it's all about balance.

On a side note, spring water isn't normally the best idea. It can be high in some minerals (Sodium and Potassium) and low in others. What can actually happen is some minerals can form granules in the fish while others can actually be "sucked" out (osmosis). I can't say for *sure* one way or another but I suspect that for the same reasons it *could* affect the bacteria too. But like I said, I don't know that.

BTW, welcome!
Chris

 

[Chris_A]

Wow, the joys of being interupted half a million times by my brother lol! I completely forgot to say what I would recommend .

OK, personally I would do another large water change, say 60-80% to drop the nitrates. Then, continue adding ammonia say 1-2mL/every 2 days until your nitrite readings are 0ppm. Through that time you can continue to do water changes to keep nitrates down or wait until the cycle is over but before you add fish for a big one. If you do water changes try to keep them to right before you dose the ammonia.

Using that system I would still stock relatively slowly but at least you shouldn't see much of an ammonia spike (if any) when you do.

Chris

 

[FroggyFox]

I agree with *most* of what Chris said, but to me it doesn't sound like your cycle is completely done yet If you keep adding ammonia your Nitrite WILL drop to 0 before your cycle is done. When it starts converting mass amounts of nitrite to nitrate (thus your elevated levels) it is NEARLY finished. So just hang in there. Keep adding ammonia, it doesn't sound like you're adding too much if the ammonia level isn't sticking high...so just keep on the same track. The only time you want to do a water change and I mean a HUGE water change is if both nitrite and nitrate get stuck really high for more than a few days. In this case some test kits actually give you a false positive on the nitrite reading because the nitrate is so high...go figure. If you do a 100% water change (or as close to it as you can get) make sure no chlorinated water gets to your filter and then just continue as usual...adding the same amount of ammonia it took to get you up to the 4ppm originally and keep truckin. Sounds like you're totally on the right track to me and ALMOST there!

 

[michellefl]

Thanks Chris and Froggy!

So I guess I will add a bit of ammonia then, and see what happens to the Nites in the next couple days before seeing if another water change is in order.

I have well water which is chlorinated. That is part of why we just used some of the spring water. I am not really sure how to handle our well water and the tank!! We bought something like aquasafe which I think pulls the chlorine out of the water...but not sure if that really works....

We will get it right, but I was really hoping we might be picking out a few fish this weekend. So now, I am keeping my fingers crossed for NEXT weekend....*thumbsups

 

[FroggyFox]

You probably ought to switch to your well water if that is the source that you are going to be using in the long run. The chemistry is going to be different between your well water and the spring water. A dechlor product is what most of us use. Many use Prime, but there are a lot of them out there and they do their job nicely. You want to add that in when you do water changes. In your case if you were to take all of the water out of the tank, you'd want to turn the heater and filter off, take the water out, put the right amount of water conditioner in, fill the tank up, turn your heater and filter back on. With your filter OFF during anytime you are adding water, you'll keep the chlorine from getting to your filter and killing all of the bacteria you have so patiently grown

Hey and welcome to the hobby Sounds like you're off to a great start!

 

[michellefl]

Cool - I will use the well water on my next change. So just to clarify - I should wait on the water change right? Or should I just do a 90% change now?

What I have is Aquasafe with BioExtract. It says it neutralizes Chlorine and heavy metals (rock on!*DRUMMER*) How long should I let the conditioner sit in there before adding the water? Should I add the water slowly? I was thinking maybe we poured it in too fast and it stired everything up! LOL

Thanks for answering all my questions. My husband wants to just throw the fish in there, but I feel like we are soooooo close!!

 

[Chris_A]

LOL, so yup I agree in principle to *most* of what Froggy said too. (Hey does two halfs make a full one on this one lol )

There's a few reasons I would not recommend maintaining an ammonia level that high though. One, elevated ammonia will actually inhibit the growth of the nitrite consuming bacteria. While it won't stop it out-right it will make complete cycling take substantially longer. Two, if you maintain a specific, measurable concentration of ammonia in the tank the bacteria that is already there is constantly playing catch up and you'll be increasing the volume of ammonia dosed. Seeing as I seem to have a problem convying exactly what I mean in paragraph form (the words just arn't coming to me) I'm going to resort to numbered list lol .

What happens when you maintain a concentration;
1) Ammonia is raised to (pulling a number out of the air) 4ppm
2) Bacteria start to multiply and utilize the ammonia. Level drops. (if you were to leave it be and not dose anymore *in theory* you would have enough bacteria to utilize 4ppm of ammonia/ whatever time unit. Doesn't actually work that way but this will do for the example.)
3) More ammonia is added to maintain the 4ppm concentration.
4) the existing bacteria are going to utilize part of that 4ppm and the rest will have to be used when they multiply further.
5) (again pulling a number out of the air) you now have enough bacteria for 6ppm / time unit. And you now have to dose more ammonia to keep that 4 ppm concentration because there are more bacteria using it faster.

If you dose a specific *volume* of ammonia (this is what my calc was good for);
1) determine how much food you will be feeding (aprox of course) because that is the TRUE source of ammonia. The fish don't produce much if they arn't eating. This determines how much ammonia the tank will need to process in a given time period (if you feed once a day, that should be your time period)
2) add that amount of ammonia and wait for the concentration to drop.
3) continue adding that amount, at some point the concentration will not go up and your reading will be 0ppm even though you are adding it.
4) wait for the nitrite to drop off to 0ppm
5) add fish based on how much you determined you were going to feed.

The practical way.... (what I now do in most cases without my calc)
1) add a gross amount of ammonia
2) wait for it to drop.
3) take the amount originally dosed and divide by the number of days it took to drop off. This gives the amount to dose on a daily basis.
4) wait for the cycle to complete
5) Continue dosing that amount until the day before adding fish.

And I just got a phone call that my brother is broke down on the highway... Sorry if this isn't as clear as I wanted it to be but at the same time I didn't want to delete it and start over later... brothers... LOL

I'll reread later and possibly do a bit of editing. Again, sorry about that.

Chris

 

[FroggyFox]

There ya go over thinking things again Chris lol If the ammonia drops to 0 and you add more ammonia, it is converting all of it. Generally at this point in the cycle it is dropping to 0 in less than 24 hours and the directions say to add that amount once a day. So it really shouldn't matter one way or the other how much ammonia you're putting in as long as its not more than originally took it to get to 4ppm, and your ammonia level is dropping to 0 after 24 hours. At this point you don't maintain a 4ppm level of ammonia...you shouldn't be...because its pretty much impossible to. Your tank is turning into that finely tuned nitrogen cycle machine.

Michelle - the conditioner does its thing instantly so you dont have to let it sit at all. I just put it in first to save as much bacteria as possible that is on any surface of the tank. MOST of them are in your filter so its not a huge deal but I figure it can't hurt.

As for how fast you add the water...doesn't matter. I just try to add it so that my decorations don't all get completely displaced.

How long was your nitrite level really high before you did the water change? If it was more than a few days I'd probably do another big change. What are your nitrite and nitrate levels now, after the water change you just did? If the nitrate and nitrite level is still the darkest color on the chart then I'd probably do another big water change.

Oh and Chris, sorry to hear about your brother, hope everything is ok...darn vehicles.

 

[Chris_A]

There ya go over thinking things again Chris lol If the ammonia drops to 0 and you add more ammonia, it is converting all of it. Generally at this point in the cycle it is dropping to 0 in less than 24 hours and the directions say to add that amount once a day. So it really shouldn't matter one way or the other how much ammonia you're putting in as long as its not more than originally took it to get to 4ppm, and your ammonia level is dropping to 0 after 24 hours. At this point you don't maintain a 4ppm level of ammonia...you shouldn't be...because its pretty much impossible to. Your tank is turning into that finely tuned nitrogen cycle machine.

AHHAHA! We're actually saying the same thing lol. Mine just goes into WAY more detail and your's is stated much "cleaner" and eloquently. Nuff said LOL!

I can't help going to extreme detail... for me that's the interesting part of aquariums, the minute interactions in the system. Plus I work as a machinist, if you wanna talk detail I've had to make bearing fits with a +0.0003"/-0.0001" tolorance. Not often mind you but it's fun when I do.

Yup, darn vehicles... arrrg. He just bought a '92 MX-6 from a guy he works with. Price was good, he's starting to see why lol. The funniest part though is it broke down on his way to a local wreakers to get some parts!

Chris

 

[michellefl]

OKee dokee - I am gonna change the water again tomorrow. I will wait for hubby to be out of the house so I won't be "viewed" wasting the spring water. LOL

I will report back tomorrow night and let you know if it made a difference. In the mean time, off to put a few drops of ammonia in to keep them going...then maybe we can get some fish in there this weekend!!!

 

[michellefl]

UPDATE...

So I finally got around to changing the water!

I pulled out around 90% today. I then added the aquasafe, and 16-17 gallons of water (and now I really need advice for the best way of adding and removing water, because - what a flipping pain it was!).

I put in a bit of ammonia since I haven't put any in since Sat, and was worried the ites and ates would die off all together.

It looks like I am at
ammonia - .5 ppm
nitrites -.25 ppm
nitrates - 10 ppm

I will test all again tomorrow, and hope that it still looks good....

Here fishy fishy...

 

[FroggyFox]

Are you using a siphon and a bucket? Thats the traditional way to do water changes and you can pick a siphon up at any fish store. If you're using buckets be sure that you use buckets that haven't had any soap in them etc. I bought new ones and designated them as "fish buckets" and they don't get used for anything else. ...but I haven't used those to do water chances since I learned what a python was A python system attaches to your sink and eliminates the need for buckets and mouthfuls of fish water!

 

[michellefl]

Python Fish Tank Clean - Aquariums - Compare Prices, Reviews and Buy at NexTag - Price - Review

*celebrate*celebrateCOOL!! this is totally what we need!!

Here are todays readings:

Ammonia back to 0
Nitrites - 1
Nitrates - looks between 20 and 40...

So does this seem good? I am about 18 hours after the tank change and amoonia add?

 

[FroggyFox]

It sounds like things are moving well...but I would wait for that nitrite level to drop to 0 before adding fish. You should be adding ammonia every time it drops to 0 or once a day if it drops to 0 in less (which it sounds like it is)