I need a jury of my peers

Lemmy · Dec 15, 2008

Would you buy these at your LFS? What would you think if someone shipped them to you UPS 3 day select with packing peanuts, no Styrofoam box, no heat pack, 6 corals in each bag? Not fish store bags but thin like the bags for produce at the market (even though they were triple bagged) and they leaked. One bag was so fouled I couldn't see what was inside.

I paid $160 for some zoos and a couple of yumas. There were no yumas to be found and some of the rocks had nothing on them at all. That price included shipping chosen by the seller. I was given no shipping options.

Below are just a few picture I sent the seller right after they arrived. As you can hopefully see they are not in good shape at all. The water temp was about 70 degrees when they arrived so I tried to warm them up slowly. Unfortunately nothing survived and the seller refuses to give me a refund.

I will post more pics and info relating to this soon so you can get a better understanding of my frustrations.*ALL*

My tank has been established for over a year with very few problems.

So people. Let me know what YOU thing about this transaction...
Do I deserve as refund? Is it my fault? And if so, how?
Feel free to ask any questions or relate some of your bad experiences.

IMG]http://s457.photobucket.com/albums/qq292/Lemmy5r/?action=view&current=FISH045-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq292/Lemmy5r/FISH045-1.jpg" border="0" alt="bad shipping 3"></a>[/IMG]

Lotus · Dec 15, 2008

The zoas may come back, give them a few days.

Was there any kind of live arrival guarantee? Was it an eBay seller or someone on a forum, or an online retailer that you bought them from?

Cichlid-Man · Dec 15, 2008

If the seller is sane, he should give you a refund. Thats no way to ship any kind of coral. Rics can melt very fast into nothing, which is probably why you didn't see them. Like lotus said, the zoas might come back so give them a little bit. Still though, you deserve something. Thats a horrible way to ship coral.

Be sure to leave negative feedback. Word spreads fast, especially on message boards. With pictures it spreads even faster.

Has anyone else had a problem with him before?

zoalover34 · Dec 15, 2008

It was me matt.. That's how i ship all my corals and have never lost any before.. It was 2 day shipping that didn't make it in 2 days.. He contacted me and i told him that i wasn't working steady right now and can't offer a full refund.. I stated that i would refund something in the near future, then he went over my head and contacted paypal trying to get the money, they didn't aprove his claim b/c he waited too long.. Since he took it upon himself to try and get the money when i told him that i would refund in a few month, i doubt that ill give anything back..

Cichlid-Man · Dec 15, 2008

Jim_Leyland said:

Well in that case i can't batter the seller (Jim) to much as i know people have had good dealings with you. I disagree about the shipping method but agree to disagree i guess, and it seems to work for you in the past. I guess we should of asked the location of it being sent as well, because weather and busy holiday traffic can play a part.

Liked stated above, the Zoas are probably just stressed. They still have the mat to them, and polyps. Just give them some time and care and they should open.

zoalover34 · Dec 15, 2008

It went to CA, and the weather was in the high 60's.. Didn't think any heat packs were needed or i would have added 1.. Ive always taken care of people who bought off of me including throwing in free frags just because i want them to be happy!

Lemmy · Dec 15, 2008

Unfortunately it was not an eBay auction as I would have received a full refund. Outside of eBay all they do is ask the seller to give a refund and even if he tells the truth in the response and says no they won't lift a finger to do anything further. The seller is still living in denial because he shipped it 3 day and now claims it was 2 day. And my claims were all made within a reasonable amount of time as you will see below. The seller is using every excuse (and lie) he can because he never had any intention of refunding my money.
Here is a copy of his response to PayPal:

11/25/2008 06:05 PST - Seller: I sent all the items he bought..heknew that by shipping LIVE coral that there was a chance that they could die if he didn't pay for OVERNIGHT shipping.. Even if he did pay for overnight there is still a chance it could die.. When you buy LIVE corals/fish from a pet store they only guarentee it for 24hrs.. He waited 20 days to contact me asking for a refund! I have no way of knowing if they were acclimated correctly, his water conditions, etc. because salt water plants and animals are very sensetive to fluctuating salt quantities, water PH and ammonia levels to name a few. Basically once they arrive they are out of my hands and its up to the new owner. I would however be happy to send you numerous names of happy customers of corals of a similar nature should you wish to examine them. Thank you

So let me address some points:
The seller[/B] chose the shipping method. It was included in the price.
The box was mailed on the 10th of November so I received it on the 13th.
The UPS tracking # 1Z 5VX 251 12 1016 6419 if you would like proof.

Below are copies of emails I sent him. You might want to start at the bottom and scroll up because of the dates:

From: David Knowles [mailto:eagles-eye@*******]
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 3:59 PM
To: 'Jim Leyland'
Subject: * Good News, Bad Zoos * Update

It’s not looking too good. Like I said, 5 rocks had nothing on them and 7 rocks were okay. By not individually wrapping each rock they were banging up against one another and caused injury. Then that in turn fouled up the water causing the remainders to get sick. The iodine is kind of like Neosporin for a wound for the Zoas. A lot of people use it as a dip for new corals.

I added more pics that I just took a few minutes ago.

Normally I just float the bags too but I need to get rid of the water form that one bag immediately. I used the water from the good bag and then slowly added water to bring up the temperature.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Leyland [mailto

sycho*******jim@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 6:24 AM
To: david.knowles@*******
Subject: RE: addy*** Good News, Bad Zoos

Zoas are pretty hardy, im sure they will be fine.. Keep me posted on how they are doing.. Shouldn't take more than a day or 2 for them to open up.. Sometimes they can take up to a week so be patient.. Hope none of em die they were my favorites! Normally when they die they will melt away so if theres still a stalk then they are still alive.. Also ive never put any iodine in my tank and not sure what the affects of it will be? With corals you really don't need to do a drip acclimation.. Normally when i get new corals i just float the bag to temp and throw em in the tank..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: david.knowles@*******
To: psycho*******jim@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: addy*** Good News, Bad Zoos
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:34:50 -0800

Hey Jim,

Well the good news is that the bag with the square base survived the trip and they appear to be in good shape. The bad news is that the other bag was fouled pretty bad and I am not sure anything will recover.

The box was wet, so at least one bag was leaking despite your triple bagging. I acclimated them for about an hour with a saltwater drip and some Iodine. There are 5 rocks that had nothing on them. So it will be some time before I can see what survived. I took some pics so you can see what I'm talking about.

I’ll keep you up to date over the next few days.

Keeping my fingers crossed,

David Knowles

Lemmy · Dec 15, 2008

One more thing I'd like to add.
When I filed the refund request thru PayPal I was only asking for $125. Letting him keep $35 for shipping costs. Actual cost was $33.60

Below is a copy of more communication between me and the seller:
Again, earlier stuff on bottom, newer on top.

Hey Jim,
Actually none of them were open. I sent you pictures from day one and then again a few days later. Most of them as you can see were hollow grey shells of zoas. Did you look at the pics? And I too am left to wonder why no one bought them off you earlier, how well were they taken care of after the pictures were taken and what did they look like when they were shipped?. When you shipped the other times did you use the same thin bags and did they leak? When I receive fish/coral they come in a Styrofoam box that keeps the temperature constant. Not packing peanuts that won't insulate.

I know the shipping was $33.60 because I used the UPS calculator to figure the price. Marking the package FRAGILE would have been a good idea too. I know that the USPS doesn’t like it when people use their Priority Mail boxes for other purposes. Had you shipped a 7.8 lbs box with the USPS it would have been: Express-$48 Priority 2 day-$22.60 or Priority large Flat Rate 2 day-$12.95.

As far as the $125 I want back you are not out any cash out of pocket, where I have nothing for $35. Also you mailed it on the 10th and I received it on the 13th. That is only 12 days (from today) not 20.

I assure you I am not scamming you. Check my feedback on eBay (beereagle). I am 100% positive with almost 600 received.

I'll end it here for now.
Let me know what you can do,
David

-----Original Message-----
From: MyFishTank.Net Freshwater Saltwater Aquarium Fish Forum [mailto:info@myfishtank.net]
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 6:04 AM
To: eagles-eye@*******
Subject: New Private Message at MyFishTank.Net Freshwater Saltwater Aquarium Fish Forum

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL!
***************************

Dear Lemmy,

You have received a new private message at MyFishTank.Net Freshwater Saltwater Aquarium Fish Forum from Jim_Leyland, entitled "Re: addy".

To read the original version, respond to, or delete this message, you must log in here:
http://www.myfishtank.net/forum/private.php

This is the message that was sent:
***************
Im not going to be able to refund anything right now, im laid off of work.. And i think shipping was like 40 bucks.. Plus it's been over 20 days since you have received them.. Not saying your tank isn't doing good or anything but the 1's that were open how do i know died b/c of shipping? Ya know? Most places online that stock things only have a 14 day.. Sorry i can't help you out right now.. Ive shipped to CA and AZ before and they all made it just fine 3 days.. Heatpacks only last for like 12 hrs anyways so i really doubt that would have made a difference out of 36hrs.. Sorry once again

---Quote (Originally by Lemmy)---
Hey Jim,
Sadly the 3 day trip was too much for all the frags and nothing survived. I think the fact that there was no heat pack and packing peanuts instead of a styrofoam box didn't help. I was hoping that you would refund back the PayPal payment less the shipping. I figured out that it was $33.60. If this is fair let me know or we could put it up for a vote in a post as to what would be fair.
Something else I realized later was that there was no sign of the Yumas. I figure that was what fouled up the water in the bag.
Anyway let me know what you think.
Thanks,
David

---Quote (Originally by Jim_Leyland)---
I see there were dropped off at 10am.. how they doin?

---Quote (Originally by Lemmy)---
---Quote (Originally by Jim_Leyland)---
i need your addy i misplaced it
---End Quote---
I could see how worried you were about the payment due to all the others standing you up. I used my second paypal address because it had my name attached to it to make you feel safer. But it turned out that my CC attached to the account had expired thus making it an echack instead if instant.
So now that that is all out of the way, Hear's the address:

Lemmy · Dec 15, 2008

Cichlid-Man said:

Judging by some of Jim's posts he was having trouble with some RC Club and had a problem with someone exchanging coral thru the mail. The other guy said he didn't receive his, but Jim said that he reshipped more coral; If my memory serves me correctly from what I read on this site. He seems like a good guy but due to his consistent lying (or bad memory), I find it hard to believe that he is laid off (I see he is still buying coral) or had any intention of taking responsibility for this and giving me my money back. I was trying to be fair but his actions have pushed me for a full refund. I don't like wasteing my time or anybody elses dealing with this thing. Nor do I need the stress I feel every time I think about it*SICK*.

Cichlid-Man · Dec 15, 2008

Lemmy said:

Having only dealt (talked to, interacted with) on this board i can only judge him by that. I've never encountered him lying or with anyone upset at a purchase from him. Thats not to say it hasn't happened, who knows what takes place behind closed doors. I just know from my experience talking with him, Jim seems to be a pretty nice guy.

Sorry for your loss, i'm not sure what to say. I think everyone hates situations like this. There are points to both parties that could be made.

MatthewLaw · Dec 15, 2008

I can only express my own interactions and transactions with Jim. UPS messed up a shipment of LR that Jim sent me. Jim delivered the package to the UPS store and even provided evidence that it was in UPS's custody WELL before their final pickup.

Jim contacted UPS and worked with them to get me a refund on my shipping costs. I wish UPS processed the refund quicker but Jim certainly was a very responsible seller in this situation.

brian1973 · Dec 15, 2008

This situation puts us in the spot that we know Jim..atleast through postings..I am going to give my opinion based soley of the facts as you stated if I dont know Jim...sorry Jim.. I usually stay out of the SW but since this is in the photo forum its fair game

...

#1 get all guarantees in writing... I recently bought fish from members of NANFA..we worked out all the details before hand including the live arrival guarantee even with me not being home when the fish arrived...they sent extra fish in each box as well, I offered to purchase the extras out of respect for the sellers and to show I was honest about the shipment. ASK SPECIFIC QUESTIONS...

#2 It's winter use some sense...we all Know the chance of shipping things this time of year see #1..

#3 Jim while I understand your laid off, but how is this the buyers problem, if the situation was reversed would you expect a refund and would you expect to wait until you have a job to get said refund?? I would have went thru paypal as well i am sure, If paypal wouldnt help I would go thru my bank or CC and dispute the charges, but if no guarantee was made I am sorry you probably arent in the right.

#4 If you cant afford to either refund or reship then you probably shouldnt be selling right now, while it is a good way to make a little extra this guy is now out his extra because a shipment went bad..now maybe he had the 160 to throw around maybe he doesnt.

Anyway just my 2 cents, one thing I have learned is get EVERYTHING in specifics in writing from both parties before purchases are made.. oh on the ebay feedback that really isnt usefull since buyers cant leave negative or neutral feedback anymore on sellers.

Jim I do want to give you kudos for standing up and saying from the onset that it was you that sent them out, you could have sat back and let the guy vent.

Orion · Dec 16, 2008

I moved this to the SW general forum.

Orion · Dec 16, 2008

As a moderator I'm a bit embarrassed to admit I don't really know either of you (Jim or Lemmy) except whenever someone ventures outside the SW forums. Which isn't much.

Lemmy, how long did you wait before you contacted Jim when you thought there was a problem with the shipping? In all of my experience with having live fish shipped, if there is a problem and the seller isn't contacted within an hour or so after delivery, they won't do a thing for the buyer.

I've had shipments of fish go bad before. Most people who have had more than a few transactions with people that require it probably have, for whatever reason. IMHO it sounded as if the seller was at least willing to talk to you and try to work something out, and if he was just wanting to rip you off he wouldn't have bothered to do that much.

sunnymittu · Dec 16, 2008

Guys
Whenever A Business Is Done Of Livestock On Net
Pictures Playa Vital Part
A Honest Seller Will Post Lot Of Pictures To Attract Buyers(note This Point)
As The Agreement Was Between You Two(to Recieve N Number Of Corals Alive Offcourse)
You Paid Your Money To End The Agreement But You Did Not Recieve Live Stock
Or I Would Say Dead Stock
You Paid U Got Cleared
He Received The Money He Had A Upper Hand(if He Was A Faul Seller)
But How Could Anyone Do Such Lame Act On Anyone
Maybe Jim Should Have Done One Day Delivey(it May Have Costed U More But May Have Got Corals Live)
One Point U Should Note
If Anyone Sells Corals
They Remain Live For Months If Sended By Geniune Keeper
If They Died
Their Is Some Problem
1#either Between The Delivey Handling(due To Bad Ups Handling)
2#he Sended You Faulty Corals
3#you Messed Up(possibility Is Less As Buyer Always Get The Benifit Of Doubt)
4#no One To Call Faulty(as Corlas Couldnt Handle The Stress)
Things You Can Do
1#you Have To Pay For Live Corals
2#you Should Be Refunded For Melted Corlas
3#get 40% Refund On Died Corals In 20 Days
4#ask To Dliver Some New Corals(without Getting The Refund)
5#as Jim Is A Seller He Is Responsible For Dead Arival
6#but You Are Rsponsible For Theier Care
7#if Jim Knew They Are Faulty(how Could He Know They Are Gonna Die In 20 Days)
What I Think It Is Totally Due To Bad Handling
You Should File A Case Against The Ups Company
As Jim Did Not Use Any Precautions In Packaging
He Is Liable For Some Refund(quick Refund)(he Is Not Liable To Use Any Money Of Your If He Is Faulty)
You Should Send All The Stuff To Jim(asap)to Investigate And Confirm You Are Not Lying
One Should Always Ask For Pictures And Videos Before Purchasing Stuff Like These
You Guys Should Negotiate

MatthewLaw · Dec 16, 2008

I do not believe that UPS guarantees live arrival of goods. if you pay for an item to be received 2 days after it was shipped and it arrives 2 days later, then UPS has done its job; livestock or not.

you may have a claim if you insured the item and when the box was delivered, it looked like someone used it as a soccer ball and the items inside were destroyed.

maybe jim could send you some more corals overnight at his cost?

Lemmy · Dec 17, 2008

Cichlid-Man said:

I like your response before you found out who it was. Now that the seller has identified himself he has biased your opinion. Very Crafty. Like Ted Bundy. I suppose no one will respond anymore. If your friend rapes someone you don't want to be the one to rat him out. I would gladly accept $50 a month for three months if this guy has any self respect. Even though money must not be an issue anymore because it seems he wants to spend $200 on a camera.

OK
Let me stop here because I see some new replies. And let me say Thank You. I don't feel alone in this.

Let me simplify:

I sent the payment on like Nov. 3rd and because my CC on file had expired. So it turned into an echeck and took 3 days to clear. Jim didn't want to ship after WED because of the approaching weekend so he sent it Mon the 10th. Makes sense, right. I received them on the 13th. As you can see from the copies of our communications, I sent him pics and told him what happened within 24 hours. We had other emails after that and on the 24th, 11 days later, he said he couldn't help me because he was laid off. Never offered any payment plan or new coral. He couldn't replace them, I figure, because he didn't have any more of the same items left. I really wanted those blue tubbs.
So I did the next logical thing and contacted PayPal for a refund. Wouldn't you? He got all upset and said, " I told you that when i got back to work that i would work with you on this but then you went and filed a claim with paypal that got denied so i guess you didn't want to wait so therefor i can't help.. sorry".
Last time I waited and didn't follow PayPal's policy to the T, I was taken for $365. And when I see this guy responding with untruthful answers, I feel like I'm being taken, again. I can understand when some of the coral dies, but the whole shipment?
Can I afford the $160? Well I just barely made the mortgage payment thanks in-part to property taxes being due and I still have my truck registration due before the 31st. I don't even want to tell you how much I have left on my credit cards.
Maybe you guys will convince Jim to step up and do the right thing. I thank you all again for your help. Meanwhile I have to waste more of my time and send some info to my bank on company letterhead to see what they can do for me.
I'll post some pics of my tank so you can see that I am no spring chicken.
Peace.........

Lemmy · Dec 18, 2008

Let's see if this works........IMG_0389.jpg (image)

IMG_0390.jpg (image)
My first bLog
Hey, I'm new to all this.. CUT ME SOME SLACK...

Cichlid-Man · Dec 18, 2008

I still said i don't agree with his shipping methods. I just don't see Jim as the guy you described as a liar and such, thats all that really changed. I like talking to Jim, i think he's a good guy. Not some online vendor trying to scam people out of stuff. I'll still be the first to tell you i'd never ship coral that way.

Nice tank btw.

Orion · Dec 18, 2008

Nobody here is going to solve your problems. MFT.net is not going to act as a group of arbitrators for this disagreement. If you want peoples opinion, that's one thing, but trying to use members opinion as a jury isn't what MFT is about, nor will it happen.

No member should feel pressured to respond to this subject via PM or public forum if they do not wish.

I need a jury of my peers

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